Draft of Drafts

[bamboozled]

I think team should draft 1 more goalkeeper as a sub. This should allow some great keepers to be included. Plaff, Schumacher, Jennings, Kahn, Shilton... These guys were just as dominant as the Dane in the last 20 years. At least, somebody picks up my favorite goal keeper of the last 20 yrs, the guy from Belgium.

[lanman]

What's happened with Teams A & B's subs choices, and where do we go from here?

[minorthreat]

What's happened with Teams A & B's subs choices, and where do we go from here?I was waiting until B posted theirs, but if they aren't going to, then we can go ahead.

[tpmazembe]

I was waiting until B posted theirs, but if they aren't going to, then we can go ahead.
Do go ahead and post your subs when you have them available.

[Ombak]

Sorry, like C-Towner said, we waited for Team B - I didn't even think about posting since I didn't see theirs. We will confer and post.

[argentine soccer fan]

I voted already. Some of the players we are considering will surprise people, I think.

After we are done, we should bring up all the players who did not make the final cut but merited consideration. There are some legendary old timers who might have gotten picked if only we had some way to watch them in action.

[BoomBoom]

Hi there!

First, I want to express my respect for this magnificent thread and for doing wonders to my knowledge of football history. It's been a real pleasure watching this draft progress.

Second, I am a member of several different forums and by some weird coincidence, we happened to start a similar draft at an ice hockey forum (yes, there are plenty of football fans there, even from countries like Brazil & the Netherlands!), just two weeks later than you (though I didn't discover this thread until the 7th round of our own draft or so). Now that you have all completed your first eleven's I could give you a link to ours, but only if you give the permission to do so.

I agree I've learned a lot from this thread. Very interesting read.

I'm curious to see how different or the same your draft turned out compared to this one.

[tpmazembe]

After we are done, we should bring up all the players who did not make the final cut but merited consideration. There are some legendary old timers who might have gotten picked if only we had some way to watch them in action.
Agree.

asf, any info on Moreno I can post?....hard to find stuff on the net.

[tpmazembe]

TEAM C Subs Profiles as promised:

Player 1 : Domingos Antonio Da Guia , El Divino Mestre (The Divine Master)

http://placar.abril.com.br/aberto/enciclopedia/craques/domingos_da_guia.shtml (http://placar.abril.com.br/aberto/enciclopedia/craques/domingos_da_guia.shtml)
Born: Nov. 11, 1912, RJ, Brasil; Death May 18, 2000
Position: Defender
Career Span: 1929-1947
Nationality: Brasilian
Club Teams: Bangu (1929 - 1932, 1948, 1949), Vasco da Gama (1932, 1934), Nacional-URU (1933), Boca Juniors-ARG (1935- 1936), Flamengo (1936- 1943) e Corinthians (1944- 1947)
National Team: 25 Caps
Career Highlights:
Campeão uruguaio (1933) pelo Nacional; carioca (1934) pelo Vasco; argentino (1935) pelo Boca Juniors; carioca (1939, 1942 e 1943) pelo Flamengo

One of the greatest defenders SA ever produced.

Domingos was known for his abilities with the football, as being one of the first defenders to not limit themselves with clearing the ball out of danger, but conducting it out of the area with class and technique.

At 18 he became a Selecao regular and soon after (age 20) was purchased by Nacional (Uruguay). Through stints with Nacional and Boca Juniors (Arg) his fame expanded throughout SA (he is still revered at both clubs).

Note: He is also my answer to comme’s question about the best father/son combo. My vote goes to Domingos and Ademir Da Guia. Ademir is considered the greatest player to have laced it up for Palmeiras (Brasil), and commanded a team that kept Santos from totally dominating S.Paolo championships in late 60s. http://placar.abril.com.br/aberto/enciclopedia/craques/ademir_da_guia.shtml (http://placar.abril.com.br/aberto/enciclopedia/craques/ademir_da_guia.shtml)

[tpmazembe]

TEAM C Subs

Player 2 : Gunther Netzer
http://www.thefa.com/Features/Postings/2004/04/TodayWasTheDay_29April.htm (http://www.thefa.com/Features/Postings/2004/04/TodayWasTheDay_29April.htm)
http://zoppol.free.fr/sports/gothafoot/players/netzer.htm (http://zoppol.free.fr/sports/gothafoot/players/netzer.htm)
Born: Sept 14, 1944
Position: Midfielder
Career Span: 1961-1976
Nationality: German
Club Teams: Borussia Mönchengladbach (1961-1973), Real
Madrid CF (1973-1976), Grasshoppers Zürich (1976)
National Team: 36 A-internationals (6 goals), 1 B-international, 2 U23-international
(2 goals)

Career Highlights:Club record (M'gladbach only): 230 Bundesliga appearances (82 goals), 73 Regionalliga appearances (31 goals), 18 appearances in UEFA Cup competitions (7 goals), 35 appearances in German Cup competition (12 goals)

Honours: FIFA World Cup Winner 1974, Winner of UEFA EURO 1972, German
Footballer Of The Year 1972, German Footballer Of The Year 1973, German

Bundesliga title with Mönchengladbach in 1970, German Bundesliga title with Mönchengladbach in 1971, German Cup winner with Mönchengladbach in 1973, Spanisch Cup winner with Real Madrid CF in 1974, Spanish top-flight title with Real Madrid CF in 1975, Spanish top-flight title with Real Madrid CF in 1976.

[Thanks to Thomas Zocker at www.seitenwahl.de] (http://www.seitenwahl.de]/)

Master midfield general. Standing well over six feet tall, he was master of the long pass, and gifted with a light touch.

Known for his mercurial nature and skill, Netzer was the driver of M’gladbach machine in the 70s. Netzer was a genius but was elbowed off the 1974 World Cup team (while remaining a member of the successful squad) because Beckenbauer could not tolerate his dictatorial ways. The Kaizer was instrumental in securing Overath in his place.

In the 1972 Euro quarter-final tie with England Netzer at Wembley, Netzer mastermind a 3-1 win for West Germany over England that is still vivid in the minds of international football fans.

An interesting story about his arrogance: At a football related banquet, Netzer was approached by a British journalist who stood in front of him and sought to open conversation by saying; "You were great against England."

"I was," said Netzer and stepped around him on his way to the bathroom.

[tpmazembe]

TEAM C Subs

Player 3 : Jose Manuel Moreno
http://www.naveguitos.com.ar/comun/v2/vis_2101.asp (http://www.naveguitos.com.ar/comun/v2/vis_2101.asp)
http://www.fundacionkonex.com.ar/premios/curriculum.asp?ID=1021&ano=1980 (http://www.fundacionkonex.com.ar/premios/curriculum.asp?ID=1021&ano=1980)

Born: March 8, 1916, Argentina
Position: Inside Right (forward) / O-Mid
Career Span: 1929-1947
Nationality: Argentine

Club Teams:
-River Plate (1935-1944; 1946-1949)
-España de México (1944-1946)
-Universidad Católica de Chile (1949-1950; 1951-1952)
-Boca Juniors (1950).
-Defensores de Montevideo (1952)
-Ferrocarril Oeste (1953)
-Independiente Medellín de Colombia (1954-1957; 1960-1962)

National Team: ? Caps (anyone can help with this???)
Career Highlights: 5 campeonatos argentinos (River), 1 campeonato chileno (U. Católica), 3 campeonatos colombianos (Independiente), 1 campeonato mexicano (Club Espana), 2 sudamericanos (Sel. Argentina)

Widely considered one of the 3 best players in Argentine history.

From 1936-57, River won 12 titles and produced "La Maquina (The Machine)" of Jose Manuel Moreno, Omar Labruna, and Adolfo Padernera, which dominated Argentina in the early 1940s. Moreno is considered the greatest of this group.

Seems Moreno was a Romario type in that he loved the nocturnal pursuits. When asked whether this vice was detrimental to his game, he answered that dancing the night away was part of his personal training regiment. From a on the field perspective, he was equally adept at creating goal opportunities and finishing them off as well.

[lanman]

I've got Moreno as having 34 caps with 19 goals between 1936 and 1950

[argentine soccer fan]

Agree.

asf, any info on Moreno I can post?....hard to find stuff on the net.

When I get home tonight I'll go through my collection of El Grafico. I am sure I will find something interesting on 'Charro' Moreno.

[Sampe]

I agree I've learned a lot from this thread. Very interesting read.

I'm curious to see how different or the same your draft turned out compared to this one.

Very well then, I assume I can now post the link. :)

Our draft was certainly less tactical than yours and each team consisted of one member only. We also had 14 teams (well, 13 in the end) as opposed to five. Here goes:

http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=65018

Hope it works.

We definitely had our share of shock picks, but hey, it's a hockey board! And I think it's safe to say that our list easily beats Pelé's recent one. ;)

edit: there's a discussion on major undrafted players near the end of the thread.

[lanman]

Very well then, I assume I can now post the link. :)

Our draft was certainly less tactical than yours and each team consisted of one member only. We also had 14 teams (well, 13 in the end) as opposed to five. Here goes:

http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=65018

Hope it works.

We definitely had our share of shock picks, but hey, it's a hockey board! And I think it's safe to say that our list easily beats Pelé's recent one. ;)

edit: there's a discussion on major undrafted players near the end of the thread.

Some good knowledgable fans there.

Two thoughts:

1 - Can I claim royalties for my Bozsik bio? It was practically word for word.

2 - Who in their right mind picks Massaro for an all-time team?

[nicephoras]

2 - Who in their right mind picks Massaro for an all-time team?

Ciro Ferrara went ahead of Sammer in that draft.

[minorthreat]

I'm going to go ahead and post one that we're all agreed on (the others are forthcoming).

Team A Subs

Name: Luis "Doble Ancho" Monti
Born: 15 May 1901, Buenos Aires, Argentina
Died: 9 September 1983
Position: Midfielder

Career Span: 1920-1939
Nationality: Argentine/Italian
Caps/Goals: 12 caps, 4 goals for Argentina/18 caps, 1 goal for Italy
Clubs: Huracán, Boca Juniors, San Lorenzo, Juventus

Major Achievements:
1 World Cup (with Italy)
1 Copa Sudamericana (with Argentina)
1 Olympic bronze medal (with Argentina)
4 Argentine championships (1 with Huracán, 3 with San Lorenzo)
4 Serie A titles
1 Coppa Italia

Born May 15th 1901 in Buenos Aires, Luis Monti is the only person to have played two World Cup finals for different countries, representing Argentina in 1930 and Italy in 1934. "Doble Ancho" (double wide), as Monti was nicknamed after his ability to cover a wide zone of the field, started his career in Huracán where he helped them win a league championship in 1921. The following year, he was transferred to Boca Juniors and months later he joined the club San Lorenzo where he became a star as he helped them lift three league championships in 1923, 1924 and 1927.

Monti made his international debut for the Argentinian national side in the South American Championship of 1927, that wonderful team with Evaristo, Orsi and Monti led Argentina to win the tournament. At the time of the inaugural World Cup, in 1930, Luis Monti was already considered one of the best centerhalf of South America, he played critical role in the tournament, scoring in the minute 81st the goal that gave Argentina a 1-0 victory against France. In the semifinal Argentina demolished the United States, Monti scored the first of six goals that gave the South Americans a 6-1 victory. But in the end, the hosts Uruguay won the final match, becoming the first World Champions after beating Argentina 4-2. In 1931 Monti moved to Italy, brought to Juventus by Renato Cesarini. He helped the club lift four league championships (1932, 1933, 1934, 1935) and one Italian Cup in 1938.

Vittorio Pozzo, the coach of Italy, thought that Luisito was the perfect link between the talented forward Meazza and the defender Monziglio, therefore Monti received an invitation to participate in the 1934 World Cup. At that time, the rules permitted a player to represent more than one country in the World Cup and the "Oriundi", which is the italian term for a foreign player of italian descent, were very popular in their clubs, the idea of having "oriundi" players in the National Team was well accepted by the fans. Raimundo Orsi, Enrique Guaita and Luis Monti, all born in Argentina proved to be decisive elements in the 1934 World Cup. In the semifinal against Austria, Luis Monti was given a man-marking job on Matthias Sindelar, one of the most talented players of the decade, a task that Monti completed with a lot of success. In the final, Italy won 2-1 against Czechoslovakia and Luis Monti added a winner's medal to the runners-up award with Argentina four years earlier, becoming the first man to win successive World Cup medals with different nations. Luis Monti ended his career playing for Juventus in 1939 after 225 games in the Italian Serie A and became a coach after his retirement. He passed away in 1983, aged 82.

Bio from: http://www.planetworldcup.com/LEGENDS/monti.html

[minorthreat]

Team A Subs #2

Name: Telmo "Zarra" Zarraonandia Montoya

Position: Striker
Born: 30 January 1921 in Asua, Vizcaya, Spain
Nationality: Basque (Spanish)
Career: 1939-1957
Caps/Goals: 20 caps, 20 goals
Clubs: Erandio, Athletic Bilbao, Indauchu, Barakaldo

Awards/achievements:
1 Liga Primera title
4 Spanish Cup titles
6 Pichichi trophies
Liga Primera all-time leading scorer
Liga Primera record holder for most goals in a season


Profile:

While a living legend in the Basque Country, to the rest of the world Telmo Zarra is one of soccer history's great lost heroes (largely due to the combination of the Castile-centric press under Franco and the fact that quite a bit of his career was while the rest of Europe was dealing with the horrors of the Second World War). Born the seventh of ten children, Zarra began playing for local club Erandio at the tender age of thirteen. It wasn't until six years later that he would burst onto the stage of Spanish soccer after realizing every Basque boy's dream by signing for Athletic Bilbao, where he donned the number nine shirt made famous by the legendary Rafael "Pichichi" Moreno Aranzadi.

After being given his debut by Athletic in 1941, he quickly became one of Spain's most feared goalscorers, helping the Basque club to the league and cup double in 1943 as well as successive cup titles in 1944 and 1945. The best was yet to come from Zarra, however, for he went on to become Spain's top scorer six times, from 1945-47 and in 1950, 1951, and 1953. In his run to the Pichichi trophy in 1951, he scored 38 goals in the Spanish top flight, making him joint record holder for most goals scored in a season after Hugo Sanchez equaled the feat in 1990. During that time he also played 20 times and scored 20 goals for Spain's national team, including four at the 1950 World Cup, where he starred alongside Barcelona legends Estanislao Basora and Antoni Ramallets. One of those goals was the lone one in Spain's 1-0 victory over England, after which one of Franco's aides famously cabled back to Madrid, "Excellency, we have vanquished the perfidious Albion."

After leaving Athletic in 1955, Zarra played one year apiece for Indauchu and Barakaldo before finally retiring in 1957 - coincidentally, the year that Sandor Kocsis arrived at Barcelona and inherited Zarra's mantle as the deadliest aerial striker in Spain. All told, Zarra amassed an incredible 251 goals in 279 games in the Spanish top flight, making him the Liga Primera's all time leading scorer.

[tpmazembe]

Team A Subs #2

Name: Telmo "Zarra" Zarraonandia Montoya

Position: Striker
Born: 30 January 1921 in Asua, Vizcaya, Spain
Nationality: Basque (Spanish)
Career: 1939-1957
Caps/Goals: 20 caps, 20 goals
Clubs: Erandio, Athletic Bilbao, Indauchu, Barakaldo.
Never heard of this gentlemen. Thanks for the education.

[minorthreat]

Never heard of this gentlemen. Thanks for the education.That was part of the appeal when we were discussing him, really - we felt like this is, more than anything else, an educational exercise devoted to the exploration of the history of the game. As such, part of the fun of going through the game's annals is unearthing obscure greats.