Draft of Drafts

[comme]

It was just to say that I was hoping to take Puskas, depending on what my team said and that I was not sure if I'd be able to post my selction with some of the problems on the site. All irrelevant now.

[argentine soccer fan]

I favoured Baresi over Beckenbaer as a pure defender and certainly considered taking him on my team. He was a wonderful player, the perfect defender.



Franco Baresi? I was surprised at that pick. I had Baresi ranked only as the fifth best defender of all time, and Beckenbauer ranked first. I can think of three others that I'd pick before Baresi. But that is not to say that Baresi wasn't one of the great defenders, because he certainly was. It is just that Beckenbauer was more of a leader of the team and better at handling the ball and starting attacks. I think he brought more to the game than Baresi.

And of course, Baresi DID NOT miss against Argentina. I will never forget that match. (Although I'd like to forget the one that came after that.)

[Spartak]

Franco Baresi? I was surprised at that pick. I had Baresi ranked only as the fifth best defender of all time, and Beckenbauer ranked first. I can think of three others that I'd pick before Baresi. But that is not to say that Baresi wasn't one of the great defenders, because he certainly was. It is just that Beckenbauer was more of a leader of the team and better at handling the ball and starting attacks. I think he brought more to the game than Baresi.

You obviously didn't see Baresi play much. He was one of the best leaders of all-time captaining Milan in thier glory years of the late '80s/early '90s. He was also one of the best defenders to start an attack from the back. I won't argue that he was better than Beckenbauer because he is in another level. But IMO, Baresi was clearly the second best libero of all-time.

[Dark Savante]

You obviously didn't see Baresi play much. He was one of the best leaders of all-time captaining Milan in thier glory years of the late '80s/early '90s. He was also one of the best defenders to start an attack from the back. I won't argue that he was better than Beckenbauer because he is in another level. But IMO, Baresi was clearly the second best libero of all-time.


I concur. Mebbe this is why tpamzembe put us on the same team, lol.

[tpmazembe]

TEAM C: efernandez, maczebus, martin cutler, tpmazembe

Round: 2 (Week 2)
Selection: 3
Cumulative 8

Player: Manoel Francisco dos Santos, better known as “Garrincha” (songbird / wren); aka “A Alegria do Povo” (The Joy of the People)

Position: Forward / Winger

Career Span: 1953-1966 (addition years marred by injury and multiple surgeries)
Nationality: Brasilian (Pau Grande, RJ, 28/10/1933)
Caps: 50
Club Teams: Botafogo (1953 to 1965), Corinthians (1966), Flamengo (1969), Olaria (1972)

Profile / Stats: 2X World Cup Champion (’58,’62), Carioca champion (1957, 1961, 1962), and Rio-São Paulo champion (1962 e 1964)

The most folkloric of the Brasilian greats.

Irreverent personality, extraordinary dribbler, blessed with one of the most devastating first-steps in football history. More of a goal creator than a finisher, Garrincha could step-up to carry a team when called upon. During WC 1962, after Pele’s groin injury in the second game, Garrincha led Brasil to its second championship with one of the WC’s more memorable series of individual performances. The jewel in that series of matches was the quarterfinal against England in which he scored two (a header and a 35 meter bomb), leaving his customary right flank to seize control of the game in the offensive third of the field (the game is widely available on VHS and worth a viewing). The Chilean newspaper El Mercurio summarized his WC displays with the headline, “From what planet is Garrincha?".

Born with physical deformities, his physical appearance didn’t foreshadow football greatness. Both legs were abnormally bent at the knees, and in the same direction (left leg bent outward, right leg bent inward). Additionally, one leg was 6cm shorter than the other. Some have surmised that this optical effect may have contributed to his ability to mesmerize his defenders.

Scored 249 goals in 579 games; 13 goals in 50 NT appearances. If assists had been properly recorded he probably would have had double those numbers (personal editorial) – check out the ready made goals he sets up for Vava during finals in ’58. The Garrincha-Pele tandem never tasted defeat (we couldn’t allow Team A to re-unite them ;)). In fact, the WC’66 3x1 defeat to Hungary, in his very last appearance on the world stage, is the only defeat in Garrincha’s NT curriculum -- incredibly, in 50 caps for the Brasilian NT Garrincha lost a grand total of 1 game!

http://www.educar.org/Educacionfisicaydeportiva/copadelmundo/Biografias/Garrincha.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Pressbox/5814/50bestbrpl/garrincha.htm
http://site.ifrance.com/champions/garrincha.htm

Team B Status: DiStefano (M), Garrincha (F)

[comme]

There's another name to scrub from my list. Cheers tp.

[Dark Savante]

I was wondering how long it would take for the ittle bird to get snatched up.

[argentine soccer fan]

You obviously didn't see Baresi play much. He was one of the best leaders of all-time captaining Milan in thier glory years of the late '80s/early '90s. He was also one of the best defenders to start an attack from the back. I won't argue that he was better than Beckenbauer because he is in another level. But IMO, Baresi was clearly the second best libero of all-time.

Obviously I didn't see him play as much as we see today's players, because we didn't have all the TV channels back then. But Baresi is a player from my era and I am very familiar with him. He was, of course a fixture at the World Cup for a while, and I remember him very well.

Look, if I say that I rank him in the top five, it means I agree that he was a great defender and a great leader. But I am just saying that there are others I'd pick before him. I may be nitpicking, but unlike the others on my list, he was unable to win the world cup. I know one player doesn't win the Cup by himself, but I would argue that while Baresi was a great defensive leader, his Italian teams lacked the fire that someone like Beckenbauer or Moore would have ignited.

I think Baresi's record at Milan speaks for itself, but I would have taken another great Milan defender, Paolo Maldini, before him. I've seen both of them play, and I think Maldini is a better all around player, a better athlete, better distributing the ball, a better defensive scorer, and has more flair. Maybe it is bias on my part, but I like players with flair. (Of course, with all other things being just about equal because I see both these players as great leaders and excellent defenders.)

So, I suppose that this is the kind of debate that this draft game is suppose to encourage.

PS: I see that Di Steffano and Garrincha are in the same team. That is sweet for team 'C'.

[tpmazembe]

argentine soccer fan makes a fair point. Without having participated in Team D's deliberations, but given all the players still available, one (I, and presumably asf) has to believe Baresi is strategic pick, more so than a "best available" choice as the 7th overall selection. Feel free to correct me on this.

Without a doubt I saw him making one of the squads and being in the chosen 55....

[Dark Savante]

I may be nitpicking, but unlike the others on my list, he was unable to win the world cup. I know one player doesn't win the Cup by himself, but I would argue that while Baresi was a great defensive leader, his Italian teams lacked the fire that someone like Beckenbauer or Moore would have ignited.

You can't say that one man's fire will generate a furnace for an entire team, that's never how it works. You will always have a team of strong personalities lead by a champion if you are to have a true cup winning team. Moore's '66 team had leaders all over the pitch from Jack Charlton to Bobby to Nobby to Hurst all had a never say die disposition and Moore was the icing on the cake. I wont even give examples of this for any German team as I'm sure you know full well about their spirit. Those captains were just the icing on the cake..the vocalist and organiser the same as Cruyff's teams incredible personalities throughout with their captain being a superb bonus...Even Maradona's 86 team had that spirit level throughout Maradona was just their superb, extraodinary component. Italy '94 didn't have that spirit throughout the team. Baggio, Baresi and Maldini carried them many of the others were defeatist when you compare that team to the Brazilian spirit and belief whilst removing both captains..Italy would've faired far worse than Brazil who had numerous leaders in their side. Baresi with players around him with a true belief captained Milan to a glorious period of dominant football...this is what you should look toward imo.



I think Baresi's record at Milan speaks for itself, but I would have taken another great Milan defender, Paolo Maldini, before him. I've seen both of them play, and I think Maldini is a better all around player, a better athlete, better distributing the ball, a better defensive scorer, and has more flair. Maybe it is bias on my part, but I like players with flair. (Of course, with all other things being just about equal because I see both these players as great leaders and excellent defenders.)


Maldini doesn't play the role that Baresi did and never starts any attacks from the centre of the field. I'm surprised you would compare the two. Maldini's prime years were at left back, never as a libero. Not only that, Maldini is a player you want confronting the opposition with immediate affect due to his pace and recovery ability...Baresi has neither and needed neither because he read all that was in front of him in a very different role than Maldini has ever played..If anything, these guys would play alongside eachother (Sound familiar?:D) not vying for the same spot in any team.

[argentine soccer fan]

Those are good points, Savant. I think you are right about your comparison of Baresi's Italy with Moore's England and Beckenbauer's Germany. But I still think that when you compare great leaders, the cream of the cream, it is fair game to look at the overall attitude of their teams.

As far as Baresi vs. Maldini, why would it be unfair to compare them? They are both great Italian defenders and both played their careers at ACMilan, and (I suspect) both are being considered as top defensive picks on this draft. I am comparing them as overall defensive players. I never said they played the same position. Obviously, they have played together in the same team.

If you were drafting for position, so be it. I was also a defender (though not a good one) and I understand that the sweeper is a key position for any team. But I would argue that Maldini is a more versatile player who is more comfortable playing either position. And do you disagree about Maldini being better in the areas that I mentioned? Where I think Baresi might have an edge is with timing and positioning, always being in the right place at the right time.

I will say it again. I think Franco Baresi was one of the great ones. My point was that, considering all players of all time, I was surprised that he was picked fifth overall (I think it is fifth, or sixth?), and I said that I would have picked a couple of defensive players ahead of him. But that doesn't mean that I don't respect him as one of the best defenders of all time.

Anyway, this game is now starting to get interesting.

[Real Ray]

I wont even give examples of this for any German team as I'm sure you know full well about their spirit. Those captains were just the icing on the cake..

That's not really true, and it plays into one of the stereotypes of Germans.

The reality-in particular 1974-was that the German team was a mess and Schon very nearly quit during the WC-most notably after the loss to the GDR. He was basically a wreck. And in fact, after this loss, it is noted by many German football writers that Beckenbauer in essence took over the team. They were driven more by fear then comradeship-very different from the great '72 team. And with players like Netzer, Effenberg, Schuster, Matthaus-German teams have in many cases be defined by their rifts and odd personalities.

In this light, I think argentine soccer fan has it more correct. Beckenbauer had a special quality-he was much more than icing on the cake. And as much as his playing class, his ability to step into the void during that rough patch in '74 seperates him from the other top captains/leaders on the other great sides.

[Dark Savante]

That's not really true, and it plays into one of the stereotypes of Germans.

The reality-in particular 1974-was that the German team was a mess and Schon very nearly quit during the WC-most notably after the loss to the GDR. He was basically a wreck. And in fact, after this loss, it is noted by many German football writers that Beckenbauer in essence took over the team. They were driven more by fear then comradeship-very different from the great '72 team. And with players like Netzer, Effenberg, Schuster, Matthaus-German teams have in many cases be defined by their rifts and odd personalities.

In this light, I think argentine soccer fan has it more correct. Beckenbauer had a special quality-he was much more than icing on the cake. And as much as his playing class, his ability to step into the void during that rough patch in '74 seperates him from the other top captains/leaders on the other great sides.

Dont take the sayng icing on the cake lightly..maybe I should have used a better metaphor..maybe.

You cannot tap into spirit that is not there. the '74 team may have been dampened some what, but below that surface layer there was belief that Beckenbauer could tap into. The fact that he did is special, I agree
most definitely. Beckenbauer displayed his manergerial nous after his plaaying days and clearly exhibited those same qualities at a very early age as a player, but so did Cruyff. To me that doesn't seperate Beckenbauer from Cruyff as a greater captain or leader, it shows the esteem his teamates held for him, much the same as any Argentine team Maradona played in from 86-94. Alot of compenents have to click to make a cup winning team not just one man - that's why i refer to these guys as the icing on the cake. Beckenbauer put that special ingrediant into a team who many rank as one of the best of all time, once he tapped into their psyches and made them believe. I don't think only he could have done that though..put any great captain into a side of such phenomenal talent and watch it turn around. Others didn't get that same opportunity Beckebaur was presented with is all. So great? yes definitely, but seperate? No way.

[Bauser]

TEAM B(auser):

Active team members: Bauser (c)

Round: 2 (Week 2)
Selection: 4
Cumulative 9

Player: DANIEL ALBERTO PASSARELLA, aka (El Gran Capitan)

Position: Central defender / libero

Career Span: 1973-1989
Nationality: Argentinian
Born: 25th May 1953
Caps/goals: 70 / 22
Clubs: Sarmiento de Junin (1973-74), River Plate (1974-82), Fiorentina (1982-86), Internazionale (1986-88) and River Plate (1988-89).

Profile / Stats: World Cup winner 1978 (captain). Domestic titles - (Metro: 1975, 77, 79, 80), (National: 1975, 79, 81).

Team B is strengthening its central line with yet another Argentinian legend. Daniel Passarella, a unique type of defender who scored an amazing 143 league goals in 486 appearances, is occupying one of two spots in our central defence. A born leader on the pitch Passarella appeared with rare class and killed the possible myth that short players can't excel as central defenders. El Gran Capitan was elegant on the ball, tactically very strong and tricky to pass one-on-one, but the most obvious thing about him was his exceptional timing and vertical leap which enabled him to outjump even the tallest of opponents at both ends of the field. Passarella contributed heavily with success on the attacking third of the field not only as a big threat in the air on corners and free-kicks from the side, but also from direct free-kicks which he often scored from. All this without sacrifising his main duties as defender. His total contribution to the teams he played for easily exceeded anything the most demanding coach could ask for. Injuries (or may be it was another brawl with Maradona?) ended his international career shortly before Mexico '86 where he could have won a second World Cup.

TEAM SO FAR: Maradona (M/F), Passarella (CD).

[Real Ray]

Dont take the sayng icing on the cake lightly..maybe To me that doesn't seperate Beckenbauer from Cruyff as a greater captain or leader, it shows the esteem his teamates held for him..
...Others didn't get that same opportunity Beckebaur was presented with is all. So great? yes definitely, but seperate? No way.

Oh..I don't agree, and all we have to do is look at the 1974 Final. What did Cryuff do on the most important day that he would ever wear a Holland shirt; when he had with him the better team? Well, I say he choked. He let himself get taken out of the game both in mind and body-do I need to post the clip of him complaining to the ref like a baby at half-time? The Kaiser...well, he just helped the lads lift the trophy. He scores higher on this-his leadership qualities are superior to Cryuffs; Cryuff's more a manifestation of his physical ability, which I think was better than Beckenbauer's.

Thank god we also have Baresi to keep our "leader" in line ;)

[tpmazembe]

TEAM B(auser):

Active team members: Bauser (c)

Round: 2 (Week 2)
Selection: 4
Cumulative 9

Player: DANIEL ALBERTO PASSARELLA, aka (El Gran Capitan)

TEAM SO FAR: Maradona (M/F), Passarella (CD).


Team B(auser) comes through in the pinch!

Re-building Arg'82...who's next, Fillol or Ramon Diaz?

Another interesting pick IMO. After Becks, my favorite Libero -- strong personality, strong in the air, and blessed with a very powerful and effective free-kick (quite underated).

Again, I'm surprised at how high a pick he turns out to be...9th...of all players ever! Team B must be using the same logic as Team D, going with tactical picks early on.

Bauser, I'll see about arranging for some assistance on your selection team.

[Bauser]

Again, I'm surprised at how high a pick he turns out to be...9th...of all players ever! Team B must be using the same logic as Team D, going with tactical picks early on.
Passarella was my first choice defender, but I admit I would have picked Garrincha if I had the chance. Team C snapped him up right in front of my nose. :)

[argentine soccer fan]

TEAM B(auser):
TEAM SO FAR: Maradona (M/F), Passarella (CD).

Nice choice. I had ranked Pasarella over Baresi as a defender.

Of course, good luck keeping him and Diego from poisoning each other...:D

[Spartak]

Nice choice. I had ranked Pasarella over Baresi as a defender.

I'm shocked ;)

[Mobile]

He was unanimous.

Well he wasn't, but I was too late to put in an opinion :D

Wouldn't have made a difference though.