Draft of Drafts

[comme]

It was a joke wasn't it?

Have I not made my opinions of Zidane clear about a million times?

The radio show about it is pretty good to listen to though, if you go to five live they have it there.

[lanman]

IMO, this draft didn't turn out the way it should have. I applaud tpmazembe for trying to get some educated posters in on this draft but unfortunately alot of members in this draft rely too heavily on the world cup or on recent era players to determine thier picks.


I don't think there is any particular era with a majority of players in this draft, let alone the current one. We have quite a good spread from the past 50 years and there as many great players around now as there were in the 50's or the 70's. World Cup performance has to be taken into account - it is the biggest stage of them all, but it shouldn't be the be all and end all.

[Excape Goat]

I want to play this game !!!!!!
I could be Team F !!!! :D

It is sad that it is coming to the end.


let's think of another draft....

[Twenty26Six]

Not the ideas, but the way they were put across. If you don't know about a player like Bozsik then how can you just dismiss him? :confused: If those same views were put across with full acknowledgement of the player(s) and his/their ability I'd have no problem with it at all.

For one I didn't mean to dismiss Boszik. On some players, especially the Hungarians[minus Puskas] and some others, I can only go by the summaries/bios and some reading at links given.

My opinions were not meant to be antagonistic and to even think that they were is ridiculous. What about this thread would make me antagonistic? I've been checking twice a day for weeks. I enjoy it. Not everyone's opinions outside the chosen few will be formulated with 100% knowledge fo all the facts. Don't get high and mighty because you know more. Everything I bring up is to hopefully get a better response and a little more insight. It helps to get people's personal views, conflicting at times, to better paint a picture.

While my experience with these players is average at best, I assure you that I understand football as good as anyone here and can see the tactical nuance in the game. Most of my questions about Team E in particular were based on not knowing the full plans of what team E meant to do strategically. Based on what I had read of Boszik and what they had posted I had thought him to be a player much like Beckenbauer. Thankfully others came into it with more insight and showed things in a different light that helped me see their intentions better.

Was I particular critical of Team D's selections? Yes, probably too much, maybe that's why you took offense. It has shown in the picks and has been admitted to by yourself that you guys argued for much of the draft. You can see the indecisiveness in the picks.

If you don't like the way I came across, I'm sorry. But don't judge me after reading one post off of Big Soccer.

-----

BTW, unrelated. tpmazembe posted once during this draft that he knew Pele's 100m time and was holding it as a trump card. I scanned back through but did not see you give it out. What was it? I'm curious.

[Dark Savante]

For one I didn't mean to dismiss Boszik. On some players, especially the Hungarians[minus Puskas] and some others, I can only go by the summaries/bios and some reading at links given.

My opinions were not meant to be antagonistic and to even think that they were is ridiculous. What about this thread would make me antagonistic? I've been checking twice a day for weeks. I enjoy it. Not everyone's opinions outside the chosen few will be formulated with 100% knowledge fo all the facts. Don't get high and mighty because you know more. Everything I bring up is to hopefully get a better response and a little more insight. It helps to get people's personal views, conflicting at times, to better paint a picture.

While my experience with these players is average at best, I assure you that I understand football as good as anyone here and can see the tactical nuance in the game. Most of my questions about Team E in particular were based on not knowing the full plans of what team E meant to do strategically. Based on what I had read of Boszik and what they had posted I had thought him to be a player much like Beckenbauer. Thankfully others came into it with more insight and showed things in a different light that helped me see their intentions better.

Was I particular critical of Team D's selections? Yes, probably too much, maybe that's why you took offense. It has shown in the picks and has been admitted to by yourself that you guys argued for much of the draft. You can see the indecisiveness in the picks.

If you don't like the way I came across, I'm sorry. But don't judge me after reading one post off of Big Soccer.

-----

BTW, unrelated. tpmazembe posted once during this draft that he knew Pele's 100m time and was holding it as a trump card. I scanned back through but did not see you give it out. What was it? I'm curious.

I think I should clear this up. I wasn't riled by what you said of team D in particular it was the way you put across your views on teams outside of A and C. Maybe it's just me, but it came across as tho you wanted to create a debate where B,D and E 'defended' their teams. Again, maybe it is just me, but it came across as intentionally antagnostic as in wanting others to take the bait and state their claim. If you didn't do that on purpose then it's on me and an apology is due, if you did, then it worked . I was just surprised others rose to what I percieved to be a proverbial fishing hook, lol.

If you were posing genuine questions then I'll be happy to voice my opinion as others have, after all, we're all entitled to opinions and after a full debate about each teams strengths and weaknesses you may still favor the teams you mentioned, that wouldn't upset me in the slightest. I hope you didn't take my rant personally, it wasn't meant to be a personal attack and I sincerly hope I haven't discouraged others from posting in this thread.

D.S says 'give peace a chance' :)

[Dark Savante]

IMO, this draft didn't turn out the way it should have. I applaud tpmazembe for trying to get some educated posters in on this draft but unfortunately alot of members in this draft rely too heavily on the world cup or on recent era players to determine thier picks.

Ahem :) a broadside eh? :) as Ianman and comme said, A major international tournament - for European players it is only WC, EC and CL - for those who will never have the chance to play the majors - is what is used to gauge most players true skill level...

[Dark Savante]

It is sad that it is coming to the end.


let's think of another draft....

Stay tuned...something huge is in the works :)

[Dark Savante]

It was a joke wasn't it?

Have I not made my opinions of Zidane clear about a million times?

The radio show about it is pretty good to listen to though, if you go to five live they have it there.

You have to wonder at the age of the voters. Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Puskas et al must be shaking their heads in disbelief. You have to wonder what the result would be if all those players had played in the same era..

[comme]

To be fair Sven had Zidane at number 1 himself. The really bad choice is not Zidane at 1, but Henry at 5, is he even a top 100 player yet?

[tpmazembe]

Wow...lots of activity in the 4 days I was gone....will endeavor to read each and every post with care.

A quick thought on Team E's three subs. Did you mean to honour some guys who didn't make it, or where you really looking at a complementary group of players for your bench?

I mean Charles, Schiaffino (we considered him for our sub), and KHRumenigge (my favorite forward of the 80s) are all quality picks, but they only reinforce your front line (maybe O-mid w/ Schiaffino in a pinch). Do they provide tactical flexibility for your team?

By the way, quality pick in Figueiroa.

lanman nice summarization.

KoldKrush, imasyko keep it coming.

All the selection teams did a great job... remember, we were wondering if any of us had the attention span to commit to an 11 week process and now we have a body of work that I think we can be proud of...other than Overath (just kidding Real Ray)!

[comme]

Well as states about Charles, he is proably the most versatile player Britain has ever produced, and I proposed him as a starter at both cntre half and centre forward. The positions I didn't feel we needed more of was centre backs or d-mids as Desailly, Bozsik and Becks can play those. Bozsik could also play right midfield or right back at a squeeze. Schiaffino can play a-mid or left side of midfield. KHR was brought in for an ability to play right of the midfield as well as up front.

For me the absense of Charles and Schiaffino from the real draft was a real pity. John Toshack last night said he considered Charles the best player ever, Jack Chalrton said he was the most effective ever. The man was half a team on his own and in Wales he is an absolute God.

[Dark Savante]

^^I thought you would go for a pacey forward myself.

[lanman]

A quick thought on Team E's three subs. Did you mean to honour some guys who didn't make it, or where you really looking at a complementary group of players for your bench?


I think it's a bit of both really. Charles and Schiaffino especially would have been worthy picks in the draft but they also fit as back-ups to our team.

[lanman]

To be fair Sven had Zidane at number 1 himself. The really bad choice is not Zidane at 1, but Henry at 5, is he even a top 100 player yet?


To be fair Sven regularly picks Ledley King, Ian Walker and Emile Heskey in the England squad and Van Nistelrooy as man of the match in the FA Cup Final, so is his judgement all that great?

[Dark Savante]

BTW has anyone seen the BBC poll of the greatest European ever?

Zidane,Best, Beckenbauer and Puskas all in the top 10.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/3764063.stm

Henry has no business being in the top 5 :confused nor Zidane in the top 3!

What are Figo Hagi and Nedved doing in the top 40 :confused:

[Spartak]

I don't think there is any particular era with a majority of players in this draft, let alone the current one. We have quite a good spread from the past 50 years and there as many great players around now as there were in the 50's or the 70's. World Cup performance has to be taken into account - it is the biggest stage of them all, but it shouldn't be the be all and end all.
It shouldn't be the deciding factor but to the uninformed it is the only way they can compare different players. And it's not just posters in this draft that over-emphasize the WC. It's every journalist, fan, manager in the world. Just look at the case of Roque Junior. You keep hearing the term "Roque Junior, World Cup Winner" Even though he has been crap for Leeds you still hear people defending him because he was a "World Cup Winner". Alot of people seem to give Roque his reputation based on the 4 weeks he played in Japan/Korea as compared to the last 5 years with Milan/Leeds. That same thing is happening in this draft. If a player didn't play on the big stage than alot of posters don't consider that player worthy. That is a shame. I thought these were supposed to the the best of the best in this draft. Yet we are basically picking an all-WC draft, with a few exceptions.

[minorthreat]

It shouldn't be the deciding factor but to the uninformed it is the only way they can compare different players. And it's not just posters in this draft that over-emphasize the WC. It's every journalist, fan, manager in the world. Just look at the case of Roque Junior. You keep hearing the term "Roque Junior, World Cup Winner" Even though he has been crap for Leeds you still hear people defending him because he was a "World Cup Winner". Alot of people seem to give Roque his reputation based on the 4 weeks he played in Japan/Korea as compared to the last 5 years with Milan/Leeds. That same thing is happening in this draft. If a player didn't play on the big stage than alot of posters don't consider that player worthy. That is a shame. I thought these were supposed to the the best of the best in this draft. Yet we are basically picking an all-WC draft, with a few exceptions.Off the top of my head, di Stefano, Gento, Santamaria, Amoros, Maldini, and Schmeichel's reputations aren't primarily based on the World Cup (although Amoros' is on Euro '84, to be fair).

[tpmazembe]

It shouldn't be the deciding factor but to the uninformed it is the only way they can compare different players. And it's not just posters in this draft that over-emphasize the WC. It's every journalist, fan, manager in the world. Just look at the case of Roque Junior. You keep hearing the term "Roque Junior, World Cup Winner" Even though he has been crap for Leeds you still hear people defending him because he was a "World Cup Winner". Alot of people seem to give Roque his reputation based on the 4 weeks he played in Japan/Korea as compared to the last 5 years with Milan/Leeds. That same thing is happening in this draft. If a player didn't play on the big stage than alot of posters don't consider that player worthy. That is a shame. I thought these were supposed to the the best of the best in this draft. Yet we are basically picking an all-WC draft, with a few exceptions.Are any of these WC-overrated players on your (Team D) squad?

Be specific Spartak, name the players on the list that have no business being there, and your rational (maybe offering a non-WC renown player who was more deserving of the spot). I think that would be a valuable source of discussion, and more actionable and debateble than the blanket indictment above.

Here are the players I believe are a true STRETCH for this elite company (given who was available at the time):

Deschamps, Ruggeri, Overath, Schmeicel

Of these only Deschamps would fit your characterization of WC-overrated player (overrated of course relative to the company of the elite of elites, but well respected in their own right).

The Overath choice is something that you can speak directly to, as you guys belabored that choice for quite awhile. Where you one of those against it?

Most of the others I can accept, especially within the context of fitting a piece of the puzzle that each selection group wanted to build.

[Dark Savante]

It shouldn't be the deciding factor but to the uninformed it is the only way they can compare different players. And it's not just posters in this draft that over-emphasize the WC. It's every journalist, fan, manager in the world. Just look at the case of Roque Junior. You keep hearing the term "Roque Junior, World Cup Winner" Even though he has been crap for Leeds you still hear people defending him because he was a "World Cup Winner". Alot of people seem to give Roque his reputation based on the 4 weeks he played in Japan/Korea as compared to the last 5 years with Milan/Leeds. That same thing is happening in this draft. If a player didn't play on the big stage than alot of posters don't consider that player worthy. That is a shame. I thought these were supposed to the the best of the best in this draft. Yet we are basically picking an all-WC draft, with a few exceptions.

We need to post our subs up. Will you reply to the deliberations thread.

[Real Ray]

Here are the players I believe are a true STRETCH for this elite company (given who was available at the time):

Deschamps, Ruggeri, Overath, Schmeicel


I would strongly disagree with you about the Dane. I think of the keepers seen as the big 5: Yashin, Banks, Maier, Zoff, and Zamora, there is a much better argument to leap ahead 5-10 years and see Peter Schmeichel in the top five-if not already. Historically, he will be seen as closer to the elite in his position than Cafu-who I think you posted on vis-a-vis how he would be viewed in time. In fact, you can make an argument that Schmeichel was the dominant player in the EPL during his prime. Your talking about a guy capped 128 caps, Euro 92 winner, and World Cup quarter-finals in 1998 to go along with his Man Utd. career.

No way is he a stretch.