Draft of Drafts

[tpmazembe]

Now that everyone has their goalkeeper, it looks like Real Ray was right about everyone being scared off by the era that one of the all-time greats played in. Since he's a Real Madrid fan like myself, I'm assuming he was referring to Ricardo Zamora - I know I brought him up in our deliberations, but ultimately there were just too many question marks over the 30's and the standard of goalkeeping in those days.The fact that only 5 GKs were going to be chosen probably straight-jacketed each team to go for proven commodities.

With only 5 GKs being chosen there is little margin for error, and with sometimes limited game footage on the early era guys, its tough to pick, and then justify to all, a pre-60s selection given the fact that goalkeeping stats are not as easily quantifiable and frequently not available (unless their reputations were universally acknowledged, as is Yashin's). These are guys you kind of have to see (or rely on the knowledge of someone who has seen them).

In the same vain, we were reluctant to pick newer era GKs without a strong curriculum of championship trophies (especially internationally) to back their pedigree. Team C seriously considered JM Pfaff (Belgium) as our keeper of choice, but couldn't pull the trigger in the face of Maier & Zoff's international records...though technically he may have been as good as either one of them.

Speaking for myself, Pfaff was a better keeper than Schmeicel (sp).

[minorthreat]

The fact that only 5 GKs were going to be chosen probably straight-jacketed each team to go for proven commodities.

With only 5 GKs being chosen there is little margin for error, and without having game footage on the early era guys, its tough to pick, and then justify to all, a pre-60s pickl (unless their reputations were universally acknowledged, as is Yashin's).

In the same vain, we were reluctant to pick newer era GKs without a strong curriculum of championship trophies (especially internationally) to back their pedigree. Team C seriously considered JM Pfaff (Belgium) as our keeper of choice, but couldn't pull the trigger in the face of Maier & Zoff's international records...though technically he may have been as good as either one of them.

Speaking for myself, Pfaff was a better keeper than Schmeicel (sp).We considered Pfaff as well, although not quite as seriously as Zamora or Fillol.

[Merengue]

Somebody finally selected Bobby Charlton. The biggest surprise to me of this entire draft is that it took so long for someone to select him. In my view he was the greatest player of all time from Britain. I lobbied hard for him on my team but my fellow selectors wanted to go in another direction. Here is a guy who could play at forward, attacking midfield or even left sided midfield. I was disappointed we didn't get him for our team.

I don't think he'll have a trouble fitting in with Team B. They can play Tardelli and Deschamps as twin holding midfielders and play Charlton and Maradona in front of them. Charlton and Maradona could switch sides at will but will be more centrally oriented. Cafu and Breitner can give their team width on the overlap.

[skipshady]

I don't think he'll have a trouble fitting in with Team B. They can play Tardelli and Deschamps as twin holding midfielders and play Charlton and Maradona in front of them. Charlton and Maradona could switch sides at will but will be more centrally oriented. Cafu and Breitner can give their team width on the overlap.That's what I'm thinking too - it'll be a standard box midfield. Having 2 holding mids will give the wingbacks a lot of freedom to push forward and cover for Charlton and Maradona. Tardelli and Deschamps are far from glamorous, but they offer protection for the more attacking minded players.

[Dark Savante]

That's what I'm thinking too - it'll be a standard box midfield. Having 2 holding mids will give the wingbacks a lot of freedom to push forward and cover for Charlton and Maradona. Tardelli and Deschamps are far from glamorous, but they offer protection for the more attacking minded players.

Considering the opposition I think team B are playing very risky. Charlton and Maradona aren't going to create width and having Cafu and Brietner overlapping all game is dangerous. How would Team B cope with a wide midfield.

[tpmazembe]

TEAM B:

Player: Sir Robert "Bobby" Charlton

Position: MidfieldWhat? You've broken the 80s trend :).
Seriously, what made you go for an "old timer"? Just too good to pass up at the 52nd spot?

Somebody finally selected Bobby Charlton.Yep. I figured someone was bound to take him, but he is one of those superstars that often gets lost in the shuffle in discussions on the boards. I wonder how many have actually seen his performances even though many of his games are available?

Charlton and Maradona could switch sides at will but will be more centrally oriented. Team B striking a chord for Argentine-English diplomacy!

[comme]

I basically insisted that we didn't take Charlton, although I would probably put him in the top 25 of alltime. I just don't like him and think there at least two, possibly 3 better British players. Moore and Best have already gone the third might well be amongst our subs.

[Excape Goat]

We considered Pfaff as well, although not quite as seriously as Zamora or Fillol.




Anyway, I am not surprised with the keeper draft order. I ranked keepers as following:

1) Yashin
2) Banks
Tied 3-5) Schmeicel, Zoff and Maier.

After the first five, I had Jennings, Zamora, Kahn and many others ranked between 6 and 10. I expected Zamora as the 6th.

I offer Pat Jennings to my team because I thought comme wanted a Tottenham player, but I forgot he moved to Arsenal later in his career. :( However, I am surprised that the two British-based members of my team were against Banks.

[Excape Goat]

Somebody finally selected Bobby Charlton. The biggest surprise to me of this entire draft is that it took so long for someone to select him. In my view he was the greatest player of all time from Britain. I lobbied hard for him on my team but my fellow selectors wanted to go in another direction. Here is a guy who could play at forward, attacking midfield or even left sided midfield. I was disappointed we didn't get him for our team.


At one point, I was okay in picking him. We all did.... then, we started to discuss more on him and we moved onward. I was surprise he slipped so far after we seriously discussed about him.

[tpmazembe]

I basically insisted that we didn't take Charlton, although I would probably put him in the top 25 of alltime. I just don't like him and think there at least two, possibly 3 better British players. Moore and Best have already gone the third might well be amongst our subs.
Don't like his game, or him as a person?

[tpmazembe]

Efernandez9, maczebus, martin cutler, tpmazembe
Round 11 (week 11)
Selection 3
53rd overall pick

Player: Manuel Amoros
Born: Feb. 1, 1962, Nimes, France
Position: RB or LB
Career Span: 1977-1997
Nationality: French
Club Teams: Monaco (1977-89), Marseille (1989-93, 95-97), O. Lyonnais (93-95)
National Team: 82 Caps

Career Highlights:
5 x French League Champions (82,88,90,91,92)
1 x French Cup (85)
1 x European Nations Cup Winner (84)
2 x WC Semifinalist (82, 86)

Complete back. Comfortable playing on the left (country) or right (club); staying back to defend, or joining the attack.

Amoros was a key member of France's national side during the early 1980's when it was widely considered one of the world's leading teams. Born of Spanish parents, the versatile Amoros was happy in either full-back position. As a youngster, he shone at rugby union.

Amoros played for Les Bleus for the first time at the age of 20 in a friendly against Italy, and remained a first choice selection for a decade. After only 4 friendlies it was evident to Michel Hildago that this player had to be inserted in the 1982 WC team. As testament to his flexibility and footballing sense, Amoros played on the left flank in order to allow Maxim Bossis to remain at his preferred RB slot. Even at the new position Manuel became one of the stand outs of the tournament. Four years later he was widely acclaimed as the best defender in WC ’86. He held the France caps record (82) until recently passed by Didier Deschamps.

It was difficult to overlap him defensively due to his speed and tenacity, and he could quickly convert to an offensive winger. During WC 1982 he announced his arrival to the world with his solid defensive displays and with his - almost game winning – 83rd minute bomb on Schumacher’s post in the classic France vs. West Germany semi. Plus, the young and relatively inexperienced Amoros stepped up and took the second penalty shot for France in the shootout – imagine the coaching staff's trust in this youngster, and his own self confidence, to be chosen in that occasion.

At the age of 34 he abandoned the pitch due to a chronic knee injury sustained over 20 years of battle.

Our selection: Unanimous
Our team : DiStefano, Garrincha, Platini, Facchetti, Mattaus, Ronaldo, Varela, Czibor, Santamaria, Maier, Amoros

http://www.maxifoot.fr/joueursfrance9.php (http://www.maxifoot.fr/joueursfrance9.php)
http://www.fff.fr/bleus/anciens/17986.shtml (http://www.fff.fr/bleus/anciens/17986.shtml)
http://webencyclosports.pingouin.ca/fr/football/fichesindividuelles/A/AmorosManuel.html (http://webencyclosports.pingouin.ca/fr/football/fichesindividuelles/A/AmorosManuel.html)

[tpmazembe]

TEAM C:

------------------------------Ronaldo---------------------------

Czibor---------------Platini------------------------Garrincha

-----------------------------------Distefano------------------

-------------------------Mattaus----------------------------

Fachetti--------Santamaria-------Varela------------Amoros

--------------------------Maier---------------------------

As we discussed DiStefano centrally in the midfield to pull the strings, with complete freedom to go forward. Our LB&RB, although fully capable of joining the attack, are strong enough defenders to stay home and focus on defense to protect our wingers back sides. Mattaus will be asked to play more defensively, and can drop back to form a 3 man defense, if we decide to push our LB/RB forward into midfield.

We line-up with a democratic team in terms of nationality: 2 German, 2 Brasilians, 2 French, 2 Uruguayans, 1 Argentine, 1 Italian, 1 Hungarian; and equally represented by playing eras.

[Dark Savante]

Firstly, Amoros was a great pick..

secondly, why do you have two of the best wingers of all time if Di Stefano is not going to be upfront? Ronaldo isn't that kind of convertor so how can you counter attack sufficiently if Platini and Ronaldo are going to be the guys who stay upfront?

[tpmazembe]

Firstly, Amoros was a great pick..

secondly, why do you have two of the best wingers of all time if Di Stefano is not going to be upfront? Ronaldo isn't that kind of convertor so how can you counter attack sufficiently if Platini and Ronaldo are going to be the guys who stay upfront?Yes Manuel is the man.

As Ombak pointed out some posts ago, Vava lived off of Garrincha fed tap-ins at Selecao level (he also did other things of course), so Ronaldo will have no problems at all living off their feeds. Additionally with Czibor and Garrincha causing problems wide, it will open up gaping holes down the middle for him to run at. Finally, one of the reasons we picked Czibor and Garrincha as our wings (as opposed to Gento and Mattews) is that they also could come inside and score when necessary, and didn't restrict themselves to the wings (see Brasil v. England '62, or Barcelona v. Benfica Euro Final '61...each moves freely around the offensive third and each score goals from positions on the pitch other than their respective flanks). As noted Czibor even played inside left for Hungary in Puskas' absence. These guys where not one trick ponies, despite being devastating on the wings. They'll be available for "tabelas" with Ronaldo and/or Platini.

Finally, Distefano was an all-round player. If you see the Einthract final, you'll see that he plays mostly in center of the park, notwithstanding that he was officially lined up as forward. His stamina is legendary. Platini is most dangerous closer to the box, and we felt did not have the physical make-up to play an out right midfielder. We have plenty of goal-scoring muscle; DiStefano will drive the bus.

[Dark Savante]

Yes Manuel is the man.

As Ombak pointed out some posts ago, Vava lived off of Garrincha fed tap-ins at Selecao level (he also did other things of course), so Ronaldo will have no problems at all living off their feeds. Additionally with Czibor and Garrincha causing problems wide, it will open up gaping wholes down the middle for him to run at. Finally, one of the reasons we picked Czibor and Garrincha as our wings (as opposed to Gento and Mattews) is that they also could come inside and score when necessary, and didn't restrict themselves to the wings (see Brasil v. England '62, or Barcelona v. Benfica Euro Final '62). As noted Czibor even played inside left for Hungary in Puskas' absence. These guys where not one trick ponies, despite being devastating on the wings. They'll be available for "tabelas" with Ronaldo and/or Platini.

Finally, Distefano was an all-round player. If you see the Einthract final, you'll see that he plays mostly in center of the park, notwithstanding that he was officially lined up as forward. His stamina is legendary. Platini is most dangerous closer to the box, and we felt did not have the physical make-up to play an out right midfielder.
ok then! No further questions your honour.

I still don't think Ronaldo's the man for cross conversions, but that's just me. :)

[tpmazembe]

ok then! No further questions your honour.

I still don't think Ronaldo's the man for cross conversions, but that's just me. :)No problem, questioning our line-up is a good thing...we'll definetly be questioning yours! ;)

The wingers' arsenal is not only the high cross, but the low cross onto the path of the forward, cross to the back of the box for the oncoming midfielder, and the ability to cut inside and unleash a shot. Plus stretching the field and defense unclutters the middle of the pitch.

I think in the European game the perspective may be that a winger's work is best "taken advantage of " by center forwards with amazing aerial capabilities. At least in the Brasilian context many a winger has played for the Selecao along with center forwards that were more anticipators (getting to the right spot) than aerial beasts.

Plus, our wingers will keep some of the more offensive minded LB/RBs chosen from having free reign to skirt their defensive duties.

[comme]

Don't like his game, or him as a person?

I don't like the way that he is made out to be better than he was. I am naturally biased against most British players. Also he just woudn't be a player I was after for his style of play in a similar way that I didn't want Eusebio or Gerd Muller they aren't my type of player.

[comme]

I think your wingbacks are wasted behind two such attacking wingers, if they go up field you are going to get caught out. I also fear for your defence as Varela and Santamaria are going to have an awful lot of work to do. Mattheus at his best was a very attacking two way player, who is going to fill in for him when he makes his forays upfield?

[Ombak]

I still don't think Ronaldo's the man for cross conversions, but that's just me. :)

When you think of crosses on the ground, not in the air, Ronaldo is just as good as anyone.

And if they come in high he can improvise a little like he did against Turkey. :D

[Dark Savante]

When you think of crosses on the ground, not in the air, Ronaldo is just as good as anyone.

And if they come in high he can improvise a little like he did against Turkey. :D

See that's the thing about Ronaldo. He is my all time favorite player, but he really isn't the guy trying to break his neck to reach ground crosses either.

I'm going to say you can't have Ronaldo 2002 and Ronaldo 1996 because they both do things the other one would not even contemplate..and of the two Ronaldo '96 is not going to be overlooked...Ronaldo '96 was not making crazy flying kicks to cross-convert and he wasn't really slotting balls home the way '02 did throughout the world cup and in the final.. I'll just say the Ronaldo that they have picked here is not the one I can envisage doing much cross converting at all.

The easy way out for tpmazembe is to just say 'we give Ronaldo the ball and he does the rest, with or without his teammates' :)