Draft of Drafts

[Real Ray]

It is a surprising pick. I like Overath, but you will have to explain the rationale for the decision, and how you plan to play. I realize your defenders and midfielders are very capable of joining the attack, but if you are planning to play with only one true forward he is going to have to be God, because while your defense is arguably tops, we all have great defenders. And as great as your defense is, I think that with the greatest fowards in the game we'll find a way to break through. If you are counting on your lateral defenders to provide much of the attack, we could exploit that.

But I guess Helenio Herrera would be proud. :D

This will be my last post for some time, so I will just say a few thing re: the pick since it began with me.

I think it's obvious that our team was built from the back; we have passed over all of the best strikers to put together what I feel is the best back four. In essence what the row in our team centered on was: keeping the path we have been going along, or-and these are my feelings not the others-using the picks in the obvious slots, which I felt was/is a panic move. That people are scratching there heads about Overath...your loss, because IMO he does not need defending; his place in footbal history is solid. If you need a hint into my thinking on the subject, go back and read on some of the reasons why he was picked over Netzer in 1974...now look at our team...capito?

Although I will not have any more say vis-a-vis the final formation, I have given them the OK on how my final vote should be used, and I have full confidence that no matter who they pick and what formation they play, they will be able to present a solid team. If you use your imagination on the possible formations...we don't need god. Go back and read the bio I posted on Zico; read about the Cruyff at Ajax in addition to the 33 goals in 48 caps, "Total Football" conductor. Look at the complete Gullit not to mention his performance in Euro 1988-who John Motson in the recent "4-4-2" noted in picking his all-Euro team:Like so many on my team, he could play anywhere-but in 1988 he played almost an out-an-out striker along Van Basten. Gullit had all the attributes, which he showed in the final against the Soviet Union by heading the opening goal in a 2-0 win.

And we still have one pick :) Again, this is my view, but with Overath we cement a balance that plays to the strength our team. Do the other teams have better strikers? Yes. But our team has the players to play within the devised system(s). It also has a strong historical core that provides a powerful argument in defense of the viabilty of the actual scheme the team will/can play. No other team in the draft (I think-I need to look to be 100% sure) will be able to make that claim: 6/10 of our players actually played together. Cruyff-Neeskens-Krol & Maldini-Baresi-Gullit.

Mobile, Savante, and Spartak, will take it from here.

tpmazembe-you were right, this was a fun exercise.

[argentine soccer fan]

If you use your imagination on the possible formations...we don't need god. Go back and read the bio I posted on Zico; read about the Cruyff at Ajax in addition to the 33 goals in 48 caps, "Total Football" conductor. Look at the complete Gullit not to mention his performance in Euro 1988-who John Motson in the recent "4-4-2" noted in picking his all-Euro team:

And we still have one pick :) Again, this is my view, but with Overath we cement a balance that plays to the strength our team. Do the other teams have better strikers? Yes. But our team has the players to play within the devised system(s). It also has a strong historical core that provides a powerful argument in defense of the viabilty of the actual scheme the team will/can play. No other team in the draft (I think-I need to look to be 100% sure) will be able to make that claim: 6/10 of our players actually played together. Cruyff-Neeskens-Krol & Maldini-Baresi-Gullit.



I think looking at your team more closely my question marks are not so much about Overath, but about Cryuff-Zico-Gullit. I am aware they are all great players, but can they coexist? That is your team's challenge and risk. Somebody at Real Madrid might have thought that Didi and DiStefano could play great together, and they might have said, 'look at their bios, watch their performance, read about how great they are', but in practice they apparently got in each other's way.

Of course, this is all hypotetical, and any of the teams runs the risk of great players not playing well together. And the opposite is also true. On paper Passarella and Ruggeri are a bomb waiting to explode, but in real life they complemented each other very well. And then there's Brazil of 1970. So, you never know. But I would argue that your team is risking the possibility of problems more than other teams, by having those three players playing together if they are expected to play in their familiar roles. And if you are planning to change some of their roles, then why not pick a different player?

Yeah, I agree that this game is lots of fun, and educational too.

[Excape Goat]

If I could describe Overath it would be this. He had the offensive workrate of a Pavel Nedved and defensive workrate of Gennero Gattuso. He was a complete midfielder.


Hmmm..... okay. I was concerned about the ball-winning skills of your midfield. Neekens alone was not enough at this level. Overath seemed to fit into mold. I still could not get the debate on your team. You still have another pick to find a striker. It seemed the problem started earlier when you picked the third attack midfielder.

[Excape Goat]

No other team in the draft (I think-I need to look to be 100% sure) will be able to make that claim: 6/10 of our players actually played together. Cruyff-Neeskens-Krol & Maldini-Baresi-Gullit.

.


Our team can make the same claim. Bozsik-Puskus-Koscic, Roberto Carlos-Zidane, and Thuram-Desailly-Zidane.

[comme]

You determine a goalscorers greatness by how many international goals they scored. Others may disagree because every case is different. E.g. Patrick Kluivert scored more international goals than Marco Van Basten. Does that make Kluivert better?

I don't determine greatness by that but it is certainly a criteria. A player can have all the attributes in the world but being a striker is essentially about putting the ball in the back of the net. I wouldn't say that Kluivert was better than Van Basten (or even near him) but in 20 years time some people might say "well look how many goals Kluivert scored".

The fact is that this is, by and large, an excercise in picking "great" players. We pick the players who have won the trophies and scored the goals as opposed to necessarily the best players.

[comme]

This will be my last post for some time, so I will just say a few thing re: the pick since it began with me.

I think it's obvious that our team was built from the back; we have passed over all of the best strikers to put together what I feel is the best back four. In essence what the row in our team centered on was: keeping the path we have been going along, or-and these are my feelings not the others-using the picks in the obvious slots, which I felt was/is a panic move. That people are scratching there heads about Overath...your loss, because IMO he does not need defending; his place in footbal history is solid. If you need a hint into my thinking on the subject, go back and read on some of the reasons why he was picked over Netzer in 1974...now look at our team...capito?

Although I will not have any more say vis-a-vis the final formation, I have given them the OK on how my final vote should be used, and I have full confidence that no matter who they pick and what formation they play, they will be able to present a solid team. If you use your imagination on the possible formations...we don't need god. Go back and read the bio I posted on Zico; read about the Cruyff at Ajax in addition to the 33 goals in 48 caps, "Total Football" conductor. Look at the complete Gullit not to mention his performance in Euro 1988-who John Motson in the recent "4-4-2" noted in picking his all-Euro team:


I don't think anyone disputes the calibre of players in your team, but more the formation and ideas behind it. In Gullit, Zico and Cruyff you have three players around whom the team could be based. Who is the playmaker? All your players have great records but did any of them score their goals in such a formation? Gullit may have played as almost a striker in 88 (although I wouldn't entirely agree with that) but he didn't have Zico or Cruyff behind him did he.

If i may make a criticism of your team it would be that you have fallen into a bit of a trap which is common in these teams. It is too much of a dream team and not enough practicality. You have now tried to reverse that with Overath, but in reality it has exacerbated the problem by taking out a defensive role for Gullit which would have freed up some space for Zico and Cruyff. Equally at the back you have Baresi and Krol, two sweepers, when in fact you may have been better off with a hard man alongside either man.

Don't get me wrong I like your team, I liked it alot more before Overath.

[Spartak]

I don't think anyone disputes the calibre of players in your team, but more the formation and ideas behind it. In Gullit, Zico and Cruyff you have three players around whom the team could be based. Who is the playmaker? All your players have great records but did any of them score their goals in such a formation? Gullit may have played as almost a striker in 88 (although I wouldn't entirely agree with that) but he didn't have Zico or Cruyff behind him did he.

If i may make a criticism of your team it would be that you have fallen into a bit of a trap which is common in these teams. It is too much of a dream team and not enough practicality. You have now tried to reverse that with Overath, but in reality it has exacerbated the problem by taking out a defensive role for Gullit which would have freed up some space for Zico and Cruyff. Equally at the back you have Baresi and Krol, two sweepers, when in fact you may have been better off with a hard man alongside either man.

Don't get me wrong I like your team, I liked it alot more before Overath.
Let me respond to your worries about how Gullit, Zico, and Cruyff can coexist by using a team I think you are familar with: Milan

Before the beginning of last year's season everybody Italy were saying that Rui Costa, Pirlo, Rivaldo, and Seedorf(to a lessor extent since he was more versatile) were fighting it out for one spot in the team. The feeling was that these players couldn't play together since they all play the same position. They would get in each other's way if fielded together. But when the season started Carlo Ancelotti found a system where he used all 4 in the same squad:

--------Pirlo
Gattuso------Seedorf
---Rui Costa
-------------Rivaldo

You can see that if given the right formation great players can always find a way to play together. This season it has been Kaka, Pirlo, Rui Costa, and Seedorf who have played together. And in every game they played that formation it has been a success. All those players can be considered number 10's, but great players can always fit in anywhere. That is my feeling with Gullit, Zico, and Cruyff. Brazil 1970 is another prime example.

[comme]

Gullit should be the one in the Pirlo role though. The difference is that I expect you to line up as

Neekens Overath
Zico Cruyff Gullit

It can work but if we look instead to Real Madrid who line up

Beckham Guti
Figo Raul Zidane

then we can see an example of a team with almost as much talent as your team and they still can't get it right.

It can work, but it is normally better to have some sort of formation in which people actully play to the role that suits them rather than just chucking them all together and hoping for the best.

[Real Ray]

It can work, but it is normally better to have some sort of formation in which people actully play to the role that suits them rather than just chucking them all together and hoping for the best.

I've got one foot out the door-but I'll address this one before I'm off, because you have it wrong. ;)

One of the reasons I was strong on Overath was because I felt it was needed to provide Cryuff the most freedom in the offensive 1/3. With Holland, he played in a 4-3-3, in the center; with Ajax's famous 4-2-4, he was in a forward left postion. I can't say what the actual formation will be in the end, but I can tell you that there is a historical basis to what we are doing-it was always a dominant theme vis-a-vis Cruyff. As just one example.

If we play our back four with....

Neeskens---Overath

Gullit---Zico---Cruyff

...we play Cruyff in a AM postion on the outside left-which is where he tended to drift out to, often starting attacks down that flank. He can also play off the space in the center with our forward or track back into Zico's space..

I don't want to go any further as the others have equally valid formations and tactics. But to answer your question with this example: Cruyff will more or less have carte blanche to roam; Zico's role would be to create/pass, playing a bit deeper in offensive half, but because of the versatility of our players, still able to go forward at his discretion. Gullit's role is of an attacker-be it from wherever it is decided he will play. And there would still be another forward to throw in the mix. This is just one of several ways we can play these three players in a manner that can be defended historically.

Saludos

[comme]

However you want to square it, you have three bus drivers and only one seat. If I had been you I would have have tried to get players who offered more width in your first 4 midfielders in order to allow myself an extra striker. Unless you play Cruyff at centre forward then you will have congestion in the midfield. I still think there are better choices than Overath available.

[argentine soccer fan]

TEAM A
Ombak, Skipshady, C-towner, Argentine Soccer Fan

Round: 10 (Week 10)
Selection: 5
50th overall pick

Player: Silvio Marzolini
Born: Barracas, Argentina, October 4, 1940
Position: Left Back
Career Span:1958 - 1972
Nationality: Argentine
Caps/Goals: 25/1
Club Teams: Ferrocarril Oeste, Boca Juniors

Profile / Stats:

World Cup Participation: 1962, 1966.
Argentine league titles: 1962, 1964, 1965, 1969, 1970.
Copa Argentina: 1969
Official tournament matches with Boca Juniors: 366 matches, 9 goals

To many experts Marzolini is the finest full-back of the modern era. He was a strong and fast left-back who could tackle and intercept with the best of them but also displayed the technique and virtuoso skill of a forward when he had the opportunity to go on attack. At only 13 Marzolini won the Buenos Aires youth title with Ferrocarril Oeste and became a first division regular at 19. In 1960 he was bought by Boca Juniors, winning five league titles. He played in the World Cup finals of 1962 and 1966 - where he rose above all the unpleasant mayhem of the quater-final defeat by England at Wembley and was chosen to the all-tournament team. After retiring he enjoyed some success as a TV and film actor before he returned to Boca as coach and took them to the league title in 1981. He was forced to retire because of a heart condition. During his career he refused to consider several offers from European clubs, choosing to remain with his beloved Boca Juniors. Perhaps for this reason more than any other, he remains to fans of Boca Juniors an eternal idol, one of the most popular players to ever play in Argentina.

Our Pick: Unanimous
Our team: Vogts, Moore, Bergomi, Marzolini, Rijkaard, Didi, Mathews, Gento, Pele, Eusebio.

http://images.andale.com/f2/117/125/8690746/1082983942102_Marzolini.jpg

[Merengue]

Good choice there by Team A, they have a very balanced looking team. In my view apart from the forwards there isn't great quality in that team but like I said it is very well balanced group. Eusebio and Pele might get in each other's way a bit as they play the same position but I think players as talented as they were would have been able to figure that out.

I have to admit, however, I am baffled by the selection of Oscar Ruggeri. He's was a pretty good player but was far from an all time great. I doubt if he'd even make a team of the best players from the 80's and 90's when he played. In my view this is the most shocking pick of the entire draft.

[argentine soccer fan]

On a personal note, I am very happy that we got Marzolini. When I was a kid, 5 or 6 years old, my uncles started taking me to 'La Bombonera' to watch Boca play. To me the players of Boca were larger than life, almost god-like. Even though I was so young, I remember vividly the 1969 season, when Boca, coached by none other than Alfredo DiStefano, won the title with style. I was taken to watch almost every home game. That year seemed to me like a huge party for the whole country and the Boca colors were everywhere. And of course, Marzolini was one of the main characters. Those are great memories, and I have been a huge fan of Boca and of soccer ever since.

Anyway, it is interesting how deep the left back position is compared to right back. I am not sure when we can start naming the players, probably after we pick the subs. But there are two great German leftbacks not picked who certainly should belong in our list of great players. And also a Brazilian LB who it is a crime that he wasn't picked by anybody. Ultimately, as Comme predicted in an earlier post, it came down to the fact that the Brazilian star was known first and foremost for his great offensive contributions, and we concluded that Marzolini was the better choice for our team needs.

[tpmazembe]

I had only passing knowlege of Marzolini, thanks for the education on him.

On a personal note, I am very happy that we got Marzolini. When I was a kid, 5 or 6 years old, my uncles started taking me to 'La Bombonera' to watch Boca play. To me the players of Boca were larger than life, almost god-like. Even though I was so young, I remember vividly the 1969 season, when Boca, coached by none other than Alfredo DiStefano, won the title with style. I was taken to watch almost every home game. That year seemed to me like a huge party for the whole country and the Boca colors were everywhere. And of course, Marzolini was one of the main characters. Those are great memories, and I have been a huge fan of Boca and of soccer ever since.Great story.....ASF, you are one old mf...I'm not far behind you.;)

And also a Brazilian LB who it is a crime that he wasn't picked by anybody. Ultimately, as Comme predicted in an earlier post, it came down to the fact that the Brazilian star was known first and foremost for his great offensive contributionsHe suffers from having been known by the international audiences for playing a very offensive LB position -- much more offensive than non-brazilians were used to -- for the Selecao; but not nearly as offensive as RC for example. In fact Nilton Santos, for those who follow Botafogo, was also adept and often played for his club at Center Back. He was a superb defender, intelligent in all aspects of playing in the rear guard (so much so that his nickname is "The Encyclopedia"). I presented only Fachetti to my team as a dual role player for our first defensive pick as a check on myself (to make sure that I didn't appear biased), but now I wonder if I did him justice. But then again, maybe Fachetti would have been left out.

[tpmazembe]

My bad on the Nilton Santos thing, I keep thinking this is our 11th pick...we do indeed have one round left to complete the teams and the 55. Since all the LBs have been chosen it seems okay (we should probably freely discuss players not chosen once the 55 are selected).

For next week, please go ahead and also post your starting 11 formation.

The week after that will end the selections with the naming of the 3 subs (in one selection).

Team Re-cap after 10th Round:

TEAM A : Pele, Moore, Eusebio, Didi, Rikjaard, Matthews, Bergomi, Gento, Vogts, Marzolini
TEAM B : Maradona, Passarella, G.Muller, VanBasten, Deschamps, Breitner, Cafu, Tardelli, Yashin, Ruggeri
TEAM C : DiStefano, Garrincha, Platini, Fachetti, Mattaus, Ronaldo, Varela, Czibor, Santamaria, Maier
TEAM D : Cryuff, Baresi, Dj.Santos, Maldini, Zico, Gullit, Neeskens, Krol, Banks, Overath
TEAM E : Beckenbauer, Puskas, Best, Zidane, Bozsik, R.Carlos, Desailly, Thuram, Koscic, Schmeichel

[comme]

I understand why you picked Marzolini but i do feel disspointed that Nilton Santos didn't make the cut. He is probably Maldini's closest challenger for the title of best left back ever, but he just didn't fit into some teams.

I think in some ways that Team A were the only team who could have picked Santos as Stanley Matthews dominated him when they played in 1956. Matthews was 41 at the time.

[Spartak]

Gullit should be the one in the Pirlo role though. The difference is that I expect you to line up as

Neekens Overath
Zico Cruyff Gullit

Gullit could definately play the Pirlo role BUT we have player who is perfectly suited to that role already on our squad, Johan Neeskens. We don't need Gullit to be there.

And since Ray threw out his formation I might as well throw out mine:

---------------Neeskens
-------------------------Overath
----Zico--------Cruyff
----------Gullit
------------------Striker


It can work but if we look instead to Real Madrid who line up

Beckham Guti
Figo Raul Zidane

then we can see an example of a team with almost as much talent as your team and they still can't get it right.

It can work, but it is normally better to have some sort of formation in which people actully play to the role that suits them rather than just chucking them all together and hoping for the best.
I think we all know the real reasons why Real couldn't get things to work this year, and they are numerous.

1. They have a horrible backline, with one young center back not yet ready for the big time, 1 center back who is a converted midfielder, and 2 full backs who are not known for thier defense.

2. Guti and Beckham are supposed to be the defensive midfielders behind the 3 AM. But we all know they are not suited to that position. Guti is an attacker and Beckham is a winger.

3. Real don't have a presence in the box. For all his faults, Fernando Morientes still was a very important component of Real. With him in the starting lineup Real Madrid went through thier most succesfull period since Di Stefano graced the Bernabau. Ronaldo and Raul are both clearly better players than Morientes. But, IMO, a Morientes and Raul or Ronaldo partnership is better than the Raul/Ronaldo partnership that they currently play.

Real never needed Ronaldo or Beckham, but they got them and that is the reason they are having the problems currently. If they never bought those 2 players and kept the players they had on thier roster they would be a much better team. Tell me if you think this Real side is better:

---------------Makalele---------Helguera
-------Figo------------------------------Zidane
------------------------------Raul
-----------------Morientes

[comme]

It depends on the backline. Remember Real Madrid have never been blessed with the best defence, Ivan Campo used to start for them. I would rather have

Beckham Makalele
Figo Raul Zidane

than a midfield with Helguera in place of Beckham.

I also think that Gullit is no-where near the striker that Raul is at his best. You do have a player who is perfect for the Pirlo role in Neeskens but my whole point has been that you have picked players unsuited to the formation.

[Spartak]

It depends on the backline. Remember Real Madrid have never been blessed with the best defence, Ivan Campo used to start for them. I would rather have

Beckham Makalele
Figo Raul Zidane

than a midfield with Helguera in place of Beckham.
I respecfully disagree. You criticize our team because we are playing players in unfamilar positions. Yet you still would prefer Beckham to play as a DM. Beckham would be good in Figo's role but I still think Beckham is worse in the DM position than Helguera is. I would even rather have Cambiasso in that position or Geremi. When you have 3 attackers with not much defensive ability in front of you there needs to be guys who can run and tackle for 90 mins. David Beckham is not that type of player. If I were Real this is what I would do this year:

1. They have just bought Samuel which is a good start. But I would buy another good center back. He doesn't have to be a superstar but he has to be better than Pavon.

2. I would sell Beckham and Ronaldo. For all thier talents I think they could be better without them. In thier place I bring back Morientes and I sign Emerson.

---------------------Casillas
----------Samuel---------------Pavon/???
Salgado------------------------------------R. Carlos
------------Helguera----------Emerson
----Figo-------------------------------Zidane
------------------------------Raul
-----------------Morientes

IMO, that lineup is much better than one with both Beckham and Ronaldo in it. And as a Milan fan it would scare me if Milan were to face it.

I also think that Gullit is no-where near the striker that Raul is at his best. You do have a player who is perfect for the Pirlo role in Neeskens but my whole point has been that you have picked players unsuited to the formation.
Yes, Gullit is nowhere near the striker Raul is but that is not the exact role he will be playing. Our 3 AM are more interchangable. They can all switch positions on the fly and a they all have proven that they can score many goals at the highest level. And even though you might think Gullit is better in a different position the facts are that Gullit has been extremely succesfull in his career in the withdrawn forward position. Just look at Holland '88 and Milan where he played just behind Van Basten on many occasions. I think it is hard to put Gullit anywhere on the pitch w/o saying "He can play there but wouldn't he be better here" Gullit's versatility gives us so many options. That was my main reason for picking him.

[argentine soccer fan]

.
Yes, Gullit is nowhere near the striker Raul is but that is not the exact role he will be playing. Our 3 AM are more interchangable. They can all switch positions on the fly and a they all have proven that they can score many goals at the highest level. And even though you might think Gullit is better in a different position the facts are that Gullit has been extremely succesfull in his career in the withdrawn forward position. Just look at Holland '88 and Milan where he played just behind Van Basten on many occasions. I think it is hard to put Gullit anywhere on the pitch w/o saying "He can play there but wouldn't he be better here" Gullit's versatility gives us so many options. That was my main reason for picking him.

I guess you are going with the idea of total football. Picking players who are able to play every position well. That is a great experiment, but is it necesary to be experimenting like that when your recruiting pool is every great player who ever played the game?

I am sure Gullit will do well as a withdrawn forward. But I think, if you are using the Dutch model and you also want to stay with your one-striker system, that there was a Dutch player contemporary of Cryuff and Neeskens who, coupled with the right centerforward, might have given you more width and a more varied attack to go with your star-studded defensive scheme.

I am sure everybody must knows who I'm talking about, but I want to keep within the rules.

Anyway, I'd wager that, given ninety minutes, our great offensive team, with its great skill in ball movement, dribbling, speed, creativity and so on, would find a way to break down your defensive fortress.:D