Draft of Drafts

[Excape Goat]

People tended to remember attackers and forget about defenders. If you look at most of the best ever polls, they tended to favor attackers. This is probably a reason why only 1 brazilan from 1970 were selected and four players from French 1998 were drafted.

Of the 7 current players drafted(Roberto Carlos, Zidane, Maldini, Ronaldo, Desilly, Cafu, Thuram), five of them were defensive players. Only two current attackers were drafted. Three of the four players from the French 1998 team drafted were defensive players. They are not even known for their defense.

In my opinion, only 5 players from the 1970 Brazilian team are likely to be drafted. Four of them played in the attack positions. I guessed the Brazilians in 1970's got bypassed because too many names from different era were brought up and they just happened to get left out. For every Brazilian on 1970 team, we have Platini, Muller, Van Basten, Garrincha, Maradona, etc to choose.

[skipshady]

EG, when you say "they are not even known for their defense", do you mean the players or the whole French team? If you're talking about the players - Thuram, Desailly, Deschamps - they were certainly known for their defensive prowess. Although Thuram mans the right back for France and Juve, his preferred position is in fact central defense.

As for the team, people remember the 3-0 win against Brazil but it was the defense that got them there. They only allowed one goal from run of play the entire tournament, and it was really obvious they missed Zidane in the extra time 1-0 win against Paraguay, and showed some rust against Italy, a scoreless draw.

But I agree with your general point, people remember great attackers of the past, but great defenders from recent years. You can remember attackers with their goals or passes, but you really have to watch defenders over a certain period of time to really appreciate them.

[Real Ray]

RR, that doesn’t explain the inclusion of 4 from Bra WC’58 under the same circumstances you articulated -- older than 1970; played their careers in S.America; and very limited TV coverage in Europe.

No, because in the case of Garrincha, his World Cup profile raised his level of exposure to a greater extent than the others-he is arguably the best Brasilian ever; I rate him as the best right winger ever for sure. Santos and Didi, equally had the international exposure to secure their reputations-and of course Didi played for Real Madrid.

[Ombak]

No, because in the case of Garrincha, his World Cup profile raised his level of exposure to a greater extent than the others-he is arguably the best Brasilian ever; I rate him as the best right winger ever for sure. Santos and Didi, equally had the international exposure to secure his repuatation-and of course Didi played for Real Madrid.

All fine and good, but you haven't explained Pelé. :D

[Riverdale Goalie]

All fine and good, but you haven't explained Pelé. :D

They probably just saw him in a commercial with Freddy Adu and figured he had to be good.

[argentine soccer fan]

I hear you, and can buy that. But, what do you make of Bra'70s meager showing?

I am surprised about it. Well, we did our part picking Pele. And we were considering one other player from that team as a creative midfielder, but we concluded that Didi was the better choice. (Thanks in large part to the imput of our Brazilian captain). But I can think of at least five others from Brazil 70 who could have been selected.

I speculate that part of the reason for the meager showing is that, when looking at a team's tactical needs, it is hard to define the specific roles that some of these great players had. For example, if you look at Brazil 58, it is easy to define Garrincha's role, or Didi's. But some of the players we might have considered from the 70 team played different positions for their clubs than they did in the WC. I wonder if some of us might not have been clear as to how to best use their talents on our teams. Since most of us haven't seen them play in their clubs at their natural positions, it might have inhibited us from considering them over the players which we ended up picking.

Interestingly, I thought at the beggining that with Ombak and myself in the same team we'd pick more South American players. But for most positions there always seemed to be a European player who seemed to fit perfectly with what we thought our team needed. (ie: Rijkaard, Bergomi, Gento, Vogts, Matthews.)

[Ombak]

I speculate that part of the reason for the meager showing is that, when looking at a team's tactical needs, it is hard to define the specific roles that some of these great players had. For example, if you look at Brazil 58, it is easy to define Garrincha's role, or Didi's. But some of the players we might have considered from the 70 team played different positions for their clubs than they did in the WC. I wonder if some of us might not have been clear as to how to best use their talents on our teams. Since most of us haven't seen them play in their clubs at their natural positions, it might have inhibited us from considering them over the players which we ended up picking.

The 1970 team is talked of in Brazil as having five number 10s, and of course only Pelé couldplay that role on the national team, the others had to move to different spots to get on the team. I think asf makes a good point that this difference from club to country makes them somewhat less obvious choices than others.

[Excape Goat]

EG, when you say "they are not even known for their defense", do you mean the players or the whole French team? If you're talking about the players - Thuram, Desailly, Deschamps - they were certainly known for their defensive prowess.

True. They have good defenders, but how do they rank against other great teams? Look they got three defenders on this draft.... I am too lazy to see any other team with more defenders drafted. May be AC Milan of the late 1980's????



Back to the WC issue, I noticed that no one from the great Liverpool teams of the late 1980's has been drafted. The core of the team also happened to have horrible WC records.

[Mobile]

Back to the WC issue, I noticed that no one from the great Liverpool teams of the late 1980's has been drafted. The core of the team also happened to have horrible WC records.

That's because most of them were Scottish ;)

I did suggest one player from that side but only as a possibility should other options go. As you say, despite their unquestionable club domination, very few of the side achieved any success at international level.

[Dark Savante]

I was thinking the same ASF.

Team Re-cap after 9th Round:

TEAM A : Pele, Moore, Eusebio, Didi, Rikjaard, Matthews, Bergomi, Gento, Vogts
TEAM B : Maradona, Passarella, G.Muller, VanBasten, Deschamps, Breitner, Cafu, Tardelli, Yashin
TEAM C : DiStefano, Garrincha, Platini, Fachetti, Mattaus, Ronaldo, Varela, Czibor, Santamaria
TEAM D : Cryuff, Baresi, Dj.Santos, Maldini, Zico, Gullit, Neeskens, Krol, Banks
TEAM E : Beckenbauer, Puskas, Best, Zidane, Bozsik, R.Carlos, Desailly, Thuram, Koscic

If you remember the Greatest WC Team All-Time* thread discussion:

Hungary '50s - 4 picks to date
Brasil '58 ----- 4
Brasil '70 ----- 1
Holland '74 --- 3
W.Ger. '74 --- 3

Now consider:

France '98 --- 4
Holland '90---3

Can any conclusions be made from this? Brasil '70 an average squad without Pele? Brasil '70 squad stronger as unite than sum of individual players? Draft of Drafts selectors biased towards the present?

What are your thoughts?

*[http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20529]

In addition:

Selections:

Brazilians: 8
Dutch: 6
German: 5
French: 5
Italian: 5
Other: 5
Magyars: 4
Argentines: 3
English 3

By far the most shocking of those stats for me is that there are only 3 Argentines in an all-time draft thus far.

World Cup Winners per team:

A: 5
B: 7
C: 4
D: 2
E: 5

I wonder if this is an insight into the philosophies of each team?

[Fleck]

This is a very interesting thread, but what is this all for? I assume you're gonna compete with them somehow, but how?

[Real Ray]

=argentine soccer fan] I wonder if some of us might not have been clear as to how to best use their talents on our teams. Since most of us haven't seen them play in their clubs at their natural positions, it might have inhibited us from considering them over the players which we ended up picking.
Yeah, that's exacly my point-that's why unless they were giants like Santos and Garrincha, you need someone who knows that period or was old enough to say, "hey, I saw him do this with Corinthians..." The European Cup helps sort out the club/country thing much easier in the way it bring focus to the smaller clubs and a variety of countries-especailly during the period when you had to win your league to get in. It serves as a simpler and obvious benchmark-that may not really be fair. But I think that's what it is.

I looked at a Brasilian magazine list, and they have 4 from the team on their top 100-century list (players 1, 38, 46, and 66). I think all of would agree they are the ones. I think the issue with the other three is they all have people ahead of them. tpmazembe may be right about 3 players in the top 10 of their position-if it's the player I'm thinking about. He's a player I brought into the discussion very early in the draft. I like him a lot, but we went another way.

[Dark Savante]

Selectors have not made their voices heard, so we'll stick with picking your three subs in one selection. It preserves the integrity of the excercise -- picking the top 55 positional players -- while allowing to highlight some guys who didn't make it.

Follow this format:
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2472505&postcount=452

lastly, can we declare formations after the subs or do we have to do so with the first 11 chosen?

[skipshady]

Back to the WC issue, I noticed that no one from the great Liverpool teams of the late 1980's has been drafted. The core of the team also happened to have horrible WC records.That's when I became a Liverpool supporter. Some of those players are still my personal heroes for what they did at LFC, but they either never played their best at the international level or played for second rate national teams (can I name names? I doubt anyone's getting picked). And the European ban hurt their game and prevented them from showcasing their talents - I truly believe Liverpool could have challenged AC Milan had they not been banned from Europe.

[argentine soccer fan]

In addition:

Selections:

Brazilians: 8
Dutch: 6
German: 5
French: 5
Italian: 5
Other: 5
Magyars: 4
Argentines: 3
English 3

By far the most shocking of those stats for me is that there are only 3 Argentines in an all-time draft thus far.a





I think there are good reasons why more Argentines have not been picked. Many of our top players are far back in the past and did not get much exposure outside South America. Unfortunately our 'Golden Generation' came around during the time of WWII. We can only speculate how well they would have done if there had been WC's in the 40's?.

There is one player in particular who many old timers say is better than DiStefano and Maradona. But since there is so little I could find out about him, I couldn't bring myself to make a persuasive argument for him. (And besides we have his position well covered).

As far as later players, there were some I thought of bringing up, but I didn't because I determined that they were just a notch below the top guys we were considering. But there are two others who I think belong in our virtual tournament, and they were considered (or are being considered) by our team.

I am also surprised that we have only three English players, and four British total, so far. I think England (or I should say all of Britain) has the same problem as Argentina in that many of the great ones are from the early days. But there is one English player in particular who I am very surprised wasn't picked yet. Although, the position he played is very deep in talent, so that might be the reason.

Another note: Only one player was picked so far from the great Brazilian team which was upset by Italy in the 1982 WC.

[Twenty26Six]

That's when I became a Liverpool supporter. Some of those players are still my personal heroes for what they did at LFC, but they either never played their best at the international level or played for second rate national teams (can I name names? I doubt anyone's getting picked). And the European ban hurt their game and prevented them from showcasing their talents - I truly believe Liverpool could have challenged AC Milan had they not been banned from Europe.

As a whole, spanning all eras of LFC, I think you can only argue for a few players to be "best of all time" types. I'd really only consider four guys capable of playing on any of these teams. There are two that I could possibly see making it. One may be dominated by better players in his position, and unfortunately one may be too old and too "unknown" to make the grade.

This may seem like a bad thing, but I think it only goes to show the team concept that embodied the great LFC teams. Somewhat average guys coming together to play great football.

ps [edit] - Of course I use the word 'average' in context with this discussion, because to play 'top flight' football in England and play for your country is definitely no joke.

[Dark Savante]

I think there are good reasons why more Argentines have not been picked. Many of our top players are far back in the past and did not get much exposure outside South America. Unfortunately our 'Golden Generation' came around during the time of WWII. We can only speculate how well they would have done if there had been WC's in the 40's?.

There is one player in particular who many old timers say is better than DiStefano and Maradona. But since there is so little I could find out about him, I couldn't bring myself to make a persuasive argument for him. (And besides we have his position well covered).

As far as later players, there were some I thought of bringing up, but I didn't because I determined that they were just a notch below the top guys we were considering. But there are two others who I think belong in our virtual tournament, and they were considered (or are being considered) by our team.

I am also surprised that we have only three English players, and four British total, so far. I think England (or I should say all of Britain) has the same problem as Argentina in that many of the great ones are from the early days. But there is one English player in particular who I am very surprised wasn't picked yet. Although, the position he played is very deep in talent, so that might be the reason.

Another note: Only one player was picked so far from the great Brazilian team which was upset by Italy in the 1982 WC.

Hum what about the best LB of Argentina's history? I thought he'd be in a team for sure..still could be I guess.

[comme]

Well either the best left back for Argentina or arguably the best for Brazil will be left out. The question will be whether attack is valued over defence. It shows how deep that position is.

[Excape Goat]

That's when I became a Liverpool supporter. Some of those players are still my personal heroes for what they did at LFC, but they either never played their best at the international level or played for second rate national teams (can I name names? I doubt anyone's getting picked). And the European ban hurt their game and prevented them from showcasing their talents - I truly believe Liverpool could have challenged AC Milan had they not been banned from Europe.

I was more looking into the late 1970's squad that made of Scotish players as mentioned by Mobile rather than the early to mid-1980's squad I think you were talking. One of the 1970's guy was discussed within our group, but we picked someone else instead. Mobile's team also considered him(I think we were talking about the same guy), but did not. Frankly, I thought he would be drafted by the end of the draft. I do agree four Liverpool players were good enough to be drafted.

You are right. The players from both squads "never played their best at the international level or played for second rate national teams". Even a guy from the mid-1970's was decent for the NT, but he also failed at WC level. Perhaps there are some sort of Liverpool curse and World Cup.


Of course, we only drafted 3 British players so far.

[comme]

Team E- comme, Merengue, Excape Goat, lanman

Round 10
Pick 1 (overall pick 46)

Peter Schmeichel (The great dane)

Nation Denmark

Career Span 1980s,90s,2000s

Clubs, Hvidovre, Brondby, Manchester United, Sporting Lisbon, Aston villa, Manchester City

Major honours, European championship winner 1992, European Cup winner 1999, Englsih titles 5, Portuguese titles 1

International caps 129

There can be few greater transfers than that of Peter Schmeichel from Brondby to Manchester United in 1991 for a fee of 500K. Although Schmeichel missed out on the last ever first division title, he was in excellent form as his Danish team confounded all the critics and despite failing to qualify managed to win the Europan championships in peehaps the most shocking result in international football history. In the following season Schmeichel won the first of 5 Premiership crowns as Manchester United won their first title in 36 years. Perhaps Schmeichel's finest hour came in the now legendary treble winning season of 99. It was Schmeichel's save of Dennis Bergkamp's penalty in the FA Cup semi-final replay that made the great events of that season possible. Bergkapm was so devestated he has never taken a penalty since. In his last game at Manchester United Schmeichel lifted the Champions League trophy and the image of him cartwhelling in delight is one that will endure for years to come. After two years in Portugal Schmeichel made a shock return to the Premiership first with Aston Villa and then with Manchester City, and at both clubs he maintained his own high standards throughout.

Schmeichel was a keeper ideally suited to Team E's defence, he was big, athletic, quick and he had the ability to launch rapid counterattacks with his pin point throws. As well as this he had a remarkable command of his area and will provide an additional goal threat through his superb heading ability.