Draft of Drafts

[kopiteinkc]

If you were to ask most people to name England's 10 best players ever then probably 3 or 4 of the top 6 or 7 would come from the WC winning team. To me it seems odd that you would get so many statistically speaking. In my opinion players with the big trophies (particularly WCs) are inflated by the media and the public beyond the recognition they necesarily deserve. Banks is a case in point. There are another 4 British GKs who could have played just as successfully in that team and would go second in this list of GKs. Banks was not the best of them.

My opinion of Banks is based on seeing him play countless league and cup matches in England not just his international career and his "save of the century".

Standing on the Kop and seeing the whole of Anfield give him a standing ovation after another remarkable performance against Liverpool and denying us a win is not a common occurance. It happened all over the country and happened before and after 1966 and 1970.

I am curious as to which British goalies you rank higher than him. I have seen the best British keepers play from the mid-60s to present and Banks is by far number 1.

I could name names here, but that would violate the spirit of this draft. You mentioned David Seaman, he wouldn't be in my top 10 of British keepers.

I have two or three others you are probably thinking of (English, Irish and Welsh) none come close to Banks IMHO. All made crucial mistakes in big time games. As far as I am aware Banks never did that.

[comme]

The reason that I mentioned David Seaman is because I'm certain that he will not be selected in this poll, just as Peter Bonetti was mentioned earlier. I will leave the others until this is finished as there is an outside chance that they might be picked, but as you are not taking part in the draft I'll PM you them if you want.

Obviuously all this is subjective, but my opion is that two of them are better and the other two equal or slight inferiors.

[Real Ray]

The reason that I mentioned David Seaman is because I'm certain that he will not be selected in this poll, just as Peter Bonetti was mentioned earlier. I will leave the others until this is finished as there is an outside chance that they might be picked, but as you are not taking part in the draft I'll PM you them if you want.

Obviuously all this is subjective, but my opion is that two of them are better and the other two equal or slight inferiors.

Hmmm, I would even bring it down to two other keepers who could be a part of the conversation-and this point in the draft, we know who they are-it's pretty obvious as kopiteinkc hinted.

What I find somewhat ironic in your postion, is that the other English keeper I suspect you are rating as high or higher than Banks-I can turn your argument around on you: his honours come from playing in front of one of England's great sides during their great European run. Outstanding keeper, but a notch below IMO.

I will say this though. The keeper that Savante mentioned in our selection process may in time move up historically, so in this regard, I think you may be right in terms of the repuatation's some of the old guard keeping them rated higher than they should.

[kopiteinkc]

The reason that I mentioned David Seaman is because I'm certain that he will not be selected in this poll, just as Peter Bonetti was mentioned earlier. I will leave the others until this is finished as there is an outside chance that they might be picked, but as you are not taking part in the draft I'll PM you them if you want.

Obviuously all this is subjective, but my opion is that two of them are better and the other two equal or slight inferiors.

I know it's hard to discuss players without naming them!

I am interested in your opinion and value it. Fairly soon all teams here will have their goalies picked. We can pick it up from there. I bet I can name at least three of those you have in mind and you're dead wrong ;)

Oh and I am an old fart who doesn't change his mind too easily :)

[comme]

Well I look forward to that debate, 3 of them I'm naturally biased towards and one of them I grew up watching.

[Bauser]

Well I look forward to that debate, 3 of them I'm naturally biased towards and one of them I grew up watching.
Gary Bailey better than Banks? :)

[skipshady]

Gary Bailey better than Banks? :)
Gary Bailey, David James and Ian Walker, most likely.

[tpmazembe]

It should be interesting to see this goalie (especially English) debate progress -- with the added benefit of an O.G.(kopiteinkc)'s perspective...can't do better than someone who was actually there.

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We've shortchanged Team E's pick for this week. Koscic should be in everyone's list of great forwards, and re-uniting him with Puskas is a smart move. As with Team C's defensive tandem, its hard to beat guys who have played together and have an instinctive feel for each other's positioning.

I was not aware that he had taken his own life. Tragic.

Now think of all the center forwards who have not made the list.....

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Ombak. First you steal our selections, now you've taken my avatar. I swear, I was debating whether to put that exact portrait of the Ethiopian Prince or the photo with him casually juggling with the side of his foot. Oh well.

[Ombak]

Ombak. First you steal our selections, now you've taken my avatar. I swear, I was debating whether to put that exact portrait of the Ethiopian Prince or the photo with him casually juggling with the side of his foot. Oh well.

Well, on the bright side, your choice has been made for you! No need to think about it.

Isn't this one just perfect though?

[argentine soccer fan]

Team E- comme, Excape Goat, Merengue, lanman

Round 9

Pick 5 (overall pick 45)

Sandor Kocsis


So, the run on Hungarian players continues.

I have to say, the one thing I got from this exercise more than any other is a better appreciation of the talent of the 'Mighty Magyars'. For one thing, I learned that they provide a great pickup line at bars. :D But seriously, when we start looking at them closely and profiling them individually, it is amazing to see what an amazing wealth of talent such a small country produced, and all in one generation.

I wonder if there is a good documentary about the Hungarian players of that era, and the factors which caused the country to develop so much talent at one time. Hopefully one which also shows lots of highlights. Have you guys seen anything like that, that you can recommend?

[Dark Savante]

Hey t,

Can you please clarify the position on this subs issue? Is it all 3 in one go or 3weeks of selecting?

[tpmazembe]

Hey t,

Can you please clarify the position on this subs issue? Is it all 3 in one go or 3weeks of selecting?
Selectors have not made their voices heard, so we'll stick with picking your three subs in one selection. It preserves the integrity of the excercise -- picking the top 55 positional players -- while allowing to highlight some guys who didn't make it.

Follow this format:
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2472505&postcount=452

[tpmazembe]

So, the run on Hungarian players continues.

I have to say, the one thing I got from this exercise more than any other is a better appreciation of the talent of the 'Mighty Magyars'. I was thinking the same ASF.

Team Re-cap after 9th Round:

TEAM A : Pele, Moore, Eusebio, Didi, Rikjaard, Matthews, Bergomi, Gento, Vogts
TEAM B : Maradona, Passarella, G.Muller, VanBasten, Deschamps, Breitner, Cafu, Tardelli, Yashin
TEAM C : DiStefano, Garrincha, Platini, Fachetti, Mattaus, Ronaldo, Varela, Czibor, Santamaria
TEAM D : Cryuff, Baresi, Dj.Santos, Maldini, Zico, Gullit, Neeskens, Krol, Banks
TEAM E : Beckenbauer, Puskas, Best, Zidane, Bozsik, R.Carlos, Desailly, Thuram, Koscic

If you remember the Greatest WC Team All-Time* thread discussion:

Hungary '50s - 4 picks to date
Brasil '58 ----- 4
Brasil '70 ----- 1
Holland '74 --- 3
W.Ger. '74 --- 3

Now consider:

France '98 --- 4
Holland '90---3

Can any conclusions be made from this? Brasil '70 an average squad without Pele? Brasil '70 squad stronger as unite than sum of individual players? Draft of Drafts selectors biased towards the present?

What are your thoughts?

*[http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20529]

[comme]

I don't think it does reflect a bias towards the present. One must remember that France 98-04 have been one of history's great teams 2 championship victories and they are favourites to add another. Also it is not Holland of 90 but Holland of 88 that people are picking and more than that the three players represented are as much a part of Milan 89-95.

[tpmazembe]

I don't think it does reflect a bias towards the present. One must remember that France 98-04 have been one of history's great teams 2 championship victories and they are favourites to add another. Also it is not Holland of 90 but Holland of 88 that people are picking and more than that the three players represented are as much a part of Milan 89-95.I hear you, and can buy that. But, what do you make of Bra'70s meager showing?

[comme]

I think there are plenty on the verge of the draft (possibly sub picks) but just not quite there.

There are a couple in particular who i am surprised haven't gone.

[Excape Goat]

There are actually 4 players drafted from the West Germany 1974 team..... Vogts, Muller, Beckenbauer and Breitner. Seven players drafted played on the 1974 Final. It is not over yet. One more player should be drafted by someone.

[Twenty26Six]

I don't think it reflects badly on Brasil '70 because having great players is not a prerequisite for having a great team. Football is more about teamwork and cooperation than individual skill. You see that even though this is an exercise which promotes and celebrates that skill, roleplayers are still taken. Guys with gile and fortitude come with even more of a premium.

[Real Ray]

But, what do you make of Brasil '70s meager showing?

Other than Pele, there is really only one player who I would make a case that he is among the top 10 in his specific position. I have discussed two players from that team; one has been put in the mix more seriously than the other, but it's not the same player I just rated.

Because they did not play in Europe in the way they do today, you would have to be a) older b) have a really good knowledge of the leagues in Brasil at that time to make a good argument for some of those 1970 players vs some of the players in Europe. A good example is George Best. In a devil's advocate position I took in one of our team's debate, I posted If I take away 1968 from George Best...what are we left with:

A prime totaling 7 seasons; 2 league titles and 1 FA Cup. He was done as a player at age 26.

In those years, United finished: 1, 4, 1, 2, 8, 8, 8. No World Cups. But Best is rated by most as one of the 20 best players ever.

Now look at the 1970 team...the player who more or less plays a simnilar position...you see where I'm going? I'm not trying to kill Best, but the player I'm hinting at...I could make a case IMO.

Another point in a similar way is how with the exception of our team, it seems there is very little attempt to maintain historic clusters. We have two with, Krol-Neeskens-Cruyff; Maldini-Baresi.

[tpmazembe]

We may have stumbled unto another interesting discussion point, the more I read of the replies:

I think there are plenty on the verge of the draft (possibly sub picks) but just not quite there.There are a couple in particular who i am surprised haven't gone.Yep. But as subs, they will not make the cut as envisioned at the beginning of the process. Potentially the greatest WC team of all time….
There are actually 4 players drafted from the West Germany 1974 team..... Vogts, Muller, Beckenbauer and Breitner. Seven players drafted played on the 1974 Final. It is not over yet. One more player should be drafted by someone.Good catch on the additional German. Could the 7 players from WC Final 74 be a statement about the Selectors’ relative ages? WC ’74 is the first WC I experienced live (on TV that is).
If this draft were done by a pool of selectors 10 years older on average, would the WC ’70 final game have more players? From that final only Pele and Fachetti as of now have been selected....and that Italian team is widely regarded as their most talented ever (Italy'82 can be seen as more successful at WC, but this team also won Euro '68 before getting to WC'70 final through some difficult opponents including W.Germany in that classic semi).
I don't think it reflects badly on Brasil '70 because having great players is not a prerequisite for having a great team. Football is more about teamwork and cooperation than individual skill. You see that even though this is an exercise which promotes and celebrates that skill, roleplayers are still taken. Guys with gile and fortitude come with even more of a premium.Therefore you are in the camp that Bra 70’s team synergies far outweighed their individual player talents. Can the reverse be said about Holland?
Other than Pele, there is really only one player who I would make a case that he is among the top 10 in his specific position. This would be considered heresy in Brasil :). IMO, other than Pele, 2 more are sure fire top 10 at their positions.
Because they did not play in Europe in the way they do today, you would have to be a) older b) have a really good knowledge of the leagues in Brasil at that time to make a good argument for some of those 1970 players vs some of the players in Europe.RR, that doesn’t explain the inclusion of 4 from Bra WC’58 under the same circumstances you articulated -- older than 1970; played their careers in S.America; and very limited TV coverage in Europe.