Draft of Drafts

[Real Ray]

Yashin is really a no-brainer; it was more a game of chicken as to who would pick him.

He was at that time he was picked, arguably the best player on the board. Having said that though, including Yashin, there a five keepers who rate at such a high level that every team should have no problems at this position.

But...

The real question surrounding this position is will the teams be scared-off by the era that one of the 5 greats played in, and pass him up for a more modern player? I'm of the school that you can only judge the players by how dominante they were in their eras and several of the giants of earlier eras have not made the cut. With this position though...you leave a lot on the table.

To be continued... :)

[comme]

Well its obvious which player you are referring to, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone takes him but this is such a deep position that there is plenty of choice.

[tpmazembe]

Efernandez9, maczebus, martin cutler, tpmazembe

Round 8 (week 8)
Selection 3
43rd overall pick

Player: Jose Emilio Santamaria

Born: July 31, 1929, Montevideo, Uruguay
Position: CB
Career Span: 1947-1966
Nationality: Uruguayan (of Spanish parents)
Club Teams: Nacional, URU (1947-57), Real Madrid (1957-66)
National Team: 41 Caps (Uruguay 25, Spain 16 caps)

Career Highlights:
7 Uruguayan League Titles
1 Copa Montevideo
6 La Ligas
4 European Cups
1 Copa del Rey
1 Copa Intercontinental

Defensive general of the famous Real Madrid squad of the late ‘50s and early 60’s.

His first year at Nacional was spent as a midfielder. In his second year, during a friendly with the great River Plate team of Labruna and Listau, he so impressed his coach with his man marking of Listau that the coach decided to switch him to defender where he went on to make history.
Jose Santamaria was brought to Real Madrid three years after Santiago Bernabeu saw him play a tremendous game against Hungary during the semis of WC 1954. He quickly established himself amongst the constellation of stars, and brought order and security to the defense with his calm but authoritative displays.

Our selection: Split decision

Our team so far: DiStefano, Garrincha, Platini, Facchetti, Mattaus, Ronaldo, Varela, Czibor, Santamaria

http://www.realmadridfans.net/santamaria.htm (http://www.realmadridfans.net/santamaria.htm)

[Ombak]

Still a central defender out there (Brazilian) who I'm stunned has not been picked in an all-time draft with tpmazembe, DS and myself among others.

[tpmazembe]

Santamaria deserves a much more thoughtful profile than the one I posted, but work demands have me short on time....I apologize.

The team now has combined brains, grace, brawn, and heart in its CB pairing of Santamaria + Varela. Having played together for a time for the Celeste, this should guarantee the communication, timing, positioning and understanding at the heart of any superalative central pairing.

[tpmazembe]

Still a central defender out there (Brazilian) who I'm stunned has not been picked in an all-time draft with tpmazembe, DS and myself among others.Yes.

From my perspective it was the trade-off in order to get Czibor over Gento. Part of the exercise is just that sort of give and take amongst selectors within each team.

However, extremely pleased with our pick...especially re-uniting him with Varela.

[argentine soccer fan]

However, extremely pleased with our pick...especially re-uniting him with Varela.

True, that is an excellent combination. And with the two Uruguayans together, we better hope to get an all-time great ref when we play team C.

[lanman]

I'm sure Byron Moreno will be happy to take control for that game.

[argentine soccer fan]

The real question surrounding this position is will the teams be scared-off by the era that one of the 5 greats played in, and pass him up for a more modern player? I'm of the school that you can only judge the players by how dominante they were in their eras and several of the giants of earlier eras have not made the cut. With this position though...you leave a lot on the table.



I think it is the same debate that we had about the defenders, but with the goalkeeper it is much more obvious because of the evolution of the position.

For example, (I'll mention two players who I'm sure won't be picked), we can compare Uruguay's Ballestrero to Brasil's Marcos.

They were both excellent goalkeepers who merited being starters in a World Cup championship team. But at face value, compared to Marcos, Ballestrero had very poor technique. From the few highlights and pictures we can find, he looked like he jumped wildly and was often out of position. He must have had to rely on great reflexes to be effective. Marcos, on the other hand, was always at the right place and was technically superior.

So, if we have to do this efectively, what we have to do is allow for the time differences. When we compare players we have to take into account how they did according to their era. If Ballestrero had trained with modern methods, learned the goalkeeping techniques that evolved over the years, then with his reflexes and natural abilities he would have been a much different player. Likewise, if a player like Marcos had played in the pre-wwII era, he probably would have also made it because of his talent, but he wouldn't have looked more refined than Ballestrero did at the time.

My point is, we have to allow for time differences and compare players based on their era, or else this exercise becomes meaningless, because we'd just have to pick today's best goalies. Even Yashin looks a bit goofy at times, by today's standards, and yet most experts agree he was the best of all time.

I think we can use objective criteria for all keepers. Was he a great shotblocker, did he come out well on crosses, did he stop penalties, was he good in one-on-one situations, did he intimidate opposing strikers etc. But we have to make some allowances for the different ways that the game was played in different eras in order to judge talent with fairness.

[Dark Savante]

Still a central defender out there (Brazilian) who I'm stunned has not been picked in an all-time draft with tpmazembe, DS and myself among others.

His name was put forward by myself, but my team weren't keen. I also put forward two guys from the past decade (Brazilians) who you may or may not be surprised by.

[Dark Savante]

True, that is an excellent combination. And with the two Uruguayans together, we better hope to get an all-time great ref when we play team C.

Hah, Ronaldo is lucky he is on their team! Lol, I like C's backline it's highly original, however I can't see them staying 'back' when they have two converted midfielders and a galavanting lateral, but at the same time I can definitely see it working out rather nicely.

[Dark Savante]

I think it is the same debate that we had about the defenders, but with the goalkeeper it is much more obvious because of the evolution of the position.

For example, (I'll mention two players who I'm sure won't be picked), we can compare Uruguay's Ballestrero to Brasil's Marcos.

They were both excellent goalkeepers who merited being starters in a World Cup championship team. But at face value, compared to Marcos, Ballestrero had very poor technique. From the few highlights and pictures we can find, he looked like he jumped wildly and was often out of position. He must have had to rely on great reflexes to be effective. Marcos, on the other hand, was always at the right place and was technically superior.

So, if we have to do this efectively, what we have to do is allow for the time differences. When we compare players we have to take into account how they did according to their era. If Ballestrero had trained with modern methods, learned the goalkeeping techniques that evolved over the years, then with his reflexes and natural abilities he would have been a much different player. Likewise, if a player like Marcos had played in the pre-wwII era, he probably would have also made it because of his talent, but he wouldn't have looked more refined than Ballestrero did at the time.

My point is, we have to allow for time differences and compare players based on their era, or else this exercise becomes meaningless, because we'd just have to pick today's best goalies. Even Yashin looks a bit goofy at times, by today's standards, and yet most experts agree he was the best of all time.

I think we can use objective criteria for all keepers. Was he a great shotblocker, did he come out well on crosses, did he stop penalties, was he good in one-on-one situations, did he intimidate opposing strikers etc. But we have to make some allowances for the different ways that the game was played in different eras in order to judge talent with fairness.

Regarding this sentiment: I tend to look at the CB's in front of the goalie when I consider them. A modern great that I'm sure will be picked wouldn't gel well with a CB like Passarella.. I'm sure they'd have a fight right there and then on the pitch... lol so I consider the temprament and the style of the goalie and then those of the CB's and see if they would compliment each other or just get in the way. Imo a ball collecting, charge of his line keeper, is not going to mix well with someone like Beckenbauer, but a more composed keeper would be wonderful, etc Yashin is the only one that breaks my mould of thinking for that position after him I apply my little theory and see.

[Martin Cutler]

I think it is the same debate that we had about the defenders, but with the goalkeeper it is much more obvious because of the evolution of the position.

For example, (I'll mention two players who I'm sure won't be picked), we can compare Uruguay's Ballestrero to Brasil's Marcos.

They were both excellent goalkeepers who merited being starters in a World Cup championship team. But at face value, compared to Marcos, Ballestrero had very poor technique. From the few highlights and pictures we can find, he looked like he jumped wildly and was often out of position. He must have had to rely on great reflexes to be effective. Marcos, on the other hand, was always at the right place and was technically superior.

So, if we have to do this efectively, what we have to do is allow for the time differences. When we compare players we have to take into account how they did according to their era. If Ballestrero had trained with modern methods, learned the goalkeeping techniques that evolved over the years, then with his reflexes and natural abilities he would have been a much different player. Likewise, if a player like Marcos had played in the pre-wwII era, he probably would have also made it because of his talent, but he wouldn't have looked more refined than Ballestrero did at the time.

My point is, we have to allow for time differences and compare players based on their era, or else this exercise becomes meaningless, because we'd just have to pick today's best goalies. Even Yashin looks a bit goofy at times, by today's standards, and yet most experts agree he was the best of all time.

I think we can use objective criteria for all keepers. Was he a great shotblocker, did he come out well on crosses, did he stop penalties, was he good in one-on-one situations, did he intimidate opposing strikers etc. But we have to make some allowances for the different ways that the game was played in different eras in order to judge talent with fairness.

Interesting point. To an extent I think we have to make that analysis when comparing any player from the past to those of the more modern game (and to my thinking the more modern game is anyone from the 1970's on to the present) but i think argentine soccer fan has a point it's more apt with goalkeepers. Personally I don't think older goalies can compare to the more modern ones as their technique was poor by modern standards. Can we say that about any other position on the field? Perhaps field players of the 50's, 60's etc. didn't have the stamina or the athleticism of more modern players but they certainly had the technique. Older goalies just didn't and that in my opinion should be a big factor in comparing them to more modern players.

I've seen plenty of highlight videos of Yashin and I always wondered what the great fuss was about. I remember watching videos of the 1962 World Cup and frankly he was not very good. There were better goalies than he in that tournament. Now any player can and has had bad moments but what excatly were Yashin's accomplishments? To his credit he did help Russia in winning, if I recall correctly, a European Nations Cup When he did play in World Cups, however, was he the top goalie in those competitions? He certainly wasn't in 1962 and although he played better in 1966 I'd say Gordon Banks was probably better than he in that World cup. So even ignoring what I feel was his poor technique compared to more modern goalies, what did Yashin really accomplish when faced off with the better keepers of his era in the big matches?

Personally I'm glad Yashin was chosen as that means my team doesn't have to debate about selecting him. In my view there are far better goalies still available.

[condor11]

Still a central defender out there (Brazilian) who I'm stunned has not been picked in an all-time draft with tpmazembe, DS and myself among others.

there is still a central defender considered by many to be the greatest south america has produced still not picked

[Ombak]

there is still a central defender considered by many to be the greatest south america has produced still not picked
Junior Baiano? :D

[lanman]

there is still a central defender considered by many to be the greatest south america has produced still not picked

He's my first choice, but convincing the rest of the team may be something else.

[Dark Savante]

He's my first choice, but convincing the rest of the team may be something else.

His era is suspect to many, which is a shame. Still I wanted a modern day Brazilian alongside Baresi who definitely would shock most people on here, but his world cup was simply flawless...

I digress. This all timer will surely make someone's first team? It's a bit surreal to see him end up on a bench when he is considered to be the number 1 CB in all of S.A, lol.

[condor11]

Junior Baiano? :D

close very close;)

nah this guy isnt from one of the 3 world cup winning nations

[argentine soccer fan]

Ok, we can talk in riddles, but I'd wager Condor11 means a different player from the one you're all discussing. Just check the team which he supports, which should give you a clue.

Condor, are you watching your team take on mine right now? I'm not saying anything.

[tpmazembe]

there is still a central defender considered by many to be the greatest south america has produced still not pickedIf we are all talking about the same guy, I would submit that he is part of the greatest father/son combo ever (follow-up on comme's thought http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2302984&postcount=118).

When he gets chosen, or when the drafting is over if he doesn't, we can discuss why that is the case.

There is an Argentine forward who has same outstanding credentials, and who I would have suspected prior to the draft to be a shoe-in, still undrafted. But as with the guy above, I suspect will be seen in on someone's bench...