Draft of Drafts

[comme]

Well considering that Djalma Santos is almost unquestionably the best right back ever and everyone was going to go after him, I understand that pick.

As for your pick, i just think that you will be left with no width. Admittedly you have Cafu and Breitner to go forward but I think you might lack some in midfield. Also there are some superb midfielders left who I would have taken before him.

I was not saying it was necessarily a bad pick, just a surprise one

[comme]

Also are we still going 14 rounds? Or are we just doing 11?

[argentine soccer fan]

Well considering that Djalma Santos is almost unquestionably the best right back ever and everyone was going to go after him, I understand that pick.

As for your pick, i just think that you will be left with no width. Admittedly you have Cafu and Breitner to go forward but I think you might lack some in midfield. Also there are some superb midfielders left who I would have taken before him.

I was not saying it was necessarily a bad pick, just a surprise one

I think Cafu would take advantage of the wide open spaces, and Maradona was also not averse to going wide when he had the room. But I am interested to see how this team will be completed. With Deschamp and especially Tardelli, Maradona will have support in midfield, but he's still being asked to do a lot. They seem to be setting themselves up as a counteratacking team, and yet they have two great penalty-area centerforwards who will be waiting for Maradona to feed them. How will that work? Will Van Basten have to adjust his game and step back a bit in order to dialogue with Maradona and Tardelli?

I am trying to think of a succesful team which played with a setup like that.

[lanman]

Will Van Basten have to adjust his game and step back a bit in order to dialogue with Maradona and Tardelli?

Both Van Basten and Muller were great footballers as well as great goalscorers, I don't think this will pose much of a problem as they are both intelligent players who would know when they are needed deep or up front. Remember the 1975 European Cup Final when Muller spent most of the match in midfield and played as if it were his natural position?

[argentine soccer fan]

Both Van Basten and Muller were great footballers as well as great goalscorers, I don't think this will pose much of a problem as they are both intelligent players who would know when they are needed deep or up front. Remember the 1975 European Cup Final when Muller spent most of the match in midfield and played as if it were his natural position?

Hmmm, you are asking a bit much. I don't think the Euro Cup was televised in Argentina back then. I'll have to get a tape of that one. My memory of Muller is mostly of World Cup 74, and what a scoring machine he was!

My point is that they will have to adjust their game a bit. I am sure players of the caliber of Muller and Van Basten are quite capable of making the adjustments.

I think, at least on our team, with the imput from the different team members and the different players that were brought up, our philosophy evolved, It is looking a bit different from what we originally envisioned (or at least what I envisioned). So, I am wondering if the same happened with team B. Obviously Muller and Van Basten are great forwards and they were probably the best choice available at the time, but I think that if they knew the way their team would evolve, maybe they might have gone for a different combination.

(But perhaps not. I suppose trying to cover both Muller and VanBasten will be a defensive challenge for anybody. It is just an unusual setup, that's all.)

[tpmazembe]

And our team lacks flexibility?
Never implied that comme, my remark actually was to defend Team C, given my sense that you were questioning our players’ positional pedigree (Varela as CB, Mattaus as D-Mid) given their multi-functionality. It is quite evident that multi-facetted players are prized by this group of selectors.

TEAM B:
Player: Marco TardelliTEAM SO FAR: Maradona (M/F), Passarella (CD), G.Müller (F), Van Basten (F), Deschamps (DM), Breitner (L&RB/CM), Cafu (RB/RM), Tardelli (M).
Nice pick. Seems Team B is going with the modern 4-4-2, with two d-mids…but are they in an 80’s frame of mind (granted Muller is probably more ‘70s, and Cafu more 90’s)? Is this coincidental….where pre-’75 players close to being chosen in your deliberations?
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Finally, how cool is this:

No more than 20 minutes ago I'm chatting with a female co-worker who happens to be of Hungarian ancestry. She has this mechanical contraption on her desk and proceeds to tell me it is her father’s invention, and he’s somewhat famous for having invented this thing. The contraption has a letters ‘G & B’ on it -- the B for Budai, her father’s last name. Of course, being involved in the Draft of Drafts and being attuned to past greats, I ask, “Related to Budai of the Mighty Magyars?”

She says, “Yes”, to which I say “I’m sure all Budai’s in Hungary are related”, to which she replies “No, I am related. I’ll bring in the flag that my father keeps with his memoirs to prove it – it has all the players’ signatures.”

Are you kidding me, my jaw dropped.

Then she asked me how I knew about such things, and ends up offering to introduce me to her model girlfriend.

Who said this exercise had no extrinsic value? :)

[Ombak]

Then she asked me how I knew about such things, and ends up offering to introduce me to her model girlfriend.

Who said this exercise had no extrinsic value? :)

So, you know, if it doesn't work out, but she likes soccer fans... hook a fellow drafter up.

:D

[lanman]

Finally, how cool is this:

No more than 20 minutes ago I'm chatting with a female co-worker who happens to be of Hungarian ancestry. She has this mechanical contraption on her desk and proceeds to tell me it is her father’s invention, and he’s somewhat famous for having invented this thing. The contraption has a letters ‘G & B’ on it -- the B for Budai, her father’s last name. Of course, being involved in the Draft of Drafts and being attuned to past greats, I ask, “Related to Budai of the Mighty Magyars?”

She says, “Yes”, to which I say “I’m sure all Budai’s in Hungary are related”, to which she replies “No, I am related. I’ll bring in the flag that my father keeps with his memoirs to prove it – it has all the players’ signatures.”

Are you kidding me, my jaw dropped.

Then she asked me how I knew about such things, and ends up offering to introduce me to her model girlfriend.

Who said this exercise had no extrinsic value? :)

Great story - I bet that flag is worth a bob or two.

[Bauser]

As for your pick, i just think that you will be left with no width. Admittedly you have Cafu and Breitner to go forward but I think you might lack some in midfield.

I disagree. Imagine if we had selected two out-and-out wingers in our team, we would have been extremely vulnerable in our central line with only Deschamps with defensive qualities. Believe me, I have been thinking about flashy names who could dribble a few players in a phonebooth out on the wings, but I don't think they would make our team stronger due to the players we already have selected.

Cafu/Breitner are attack-minded and I believe they are best used by not having two Garrincha-type wingers in front of them. That will restrict the full-backs and they won't blossom to the full potential. We have a pretty heavy offensive with two strikers and Maradona already. Should we have two wingers more we might just tip over and be too heavy.

It all comes down to the total package of selecting a best possible working starting eleven. You have to give and take at some positions. In a dreamworld you could select a Jairzinho-Maradona-Platini-Garrincha midfield, but would it be efficient?

While I'm on the subject of commenting the team, I have also seen some people question the Van Basten-Müller partnership as one #9 too many. They might have played with the same shirt number (Müller used 13 often, but still..), but they were very different as players. Müller was the box player, Van Basten often worked outside the penalty area setting other players up as well as scoring. They were by no means similar player types. A Lineker-Müller combination would be wrong IMO.

[argentine soccer fan]

No more than 20 minutes ago I'm chatting with a female co-worker who happens to be of Hungarian ancestry. She has this mechanical contraption on her desk and proceeds to tell me it is her father’s invention, and he’s somewhat famous for having invented this thing. The contraption has a letters ‘G & B’ on it -- the B for Budai, her father’s last name. Of course, being involved in the Draft of Drafts and being attuned to past greats, I ask, “Related to Budai of the Mighty Magyars?”

She says, “Yes”, to which I say “I’m sure all Budai’s in Hungary are related”, to which she replies “No, I am related. I’ll bring in the flag that my father keeps with his memoirs to prove it – it has all the players’ signatures.”

Are you kidding me, my jaw dropped.

Then she asked me how I knew about such things, and ends up offering to introduce me to her model girlfriend.

Who said this exercise had no extrinsic value? :)


LOL! That is a great story. And what a great pick-up line!

I think even if a woman is not called Budai, (or never mind that, even if she is not Hungarian), how can any woman resist a charming line like, 'Are you related to the Mighty Magyars?'

:D

[argentine soccer fan]

I disagree. Imagine if we had selected two out-and-out wingers in our team, we would have been extremely vulnerable in our central line with only Deschamps with defensive qualities. Believe me, I have been thinking about flashy names who could dribble a few players in a phonebooth out on the wings, but I don't think they would make our team stronger due to the players we already have selected.

Cafu/Breitner are attack-minded and I believe they are best used by not having two Garrincha-type wingers in front of them. That will restrict the full-backs and they won't blossom to the full potential. We have a pretty heavy offensive with two strikers and Maradona already. Should we have two wingers more we might just tip over and be too heavy.

It all comes down to the total package of selecting a best possible working starting eleven. You have to give and take at some positions. In a dreamworld you could select a Jairzinho-Maradona-Platini-Garrincha midfield, but would it be efficient?

While I'm on the subject of commenting the team, I have also seen some people question the Van Basten-Müller partnership as one #9 too many. They might have played with the same shirt number (Müller used 13 often, but still..), but they were very different as players. Müller was the box player, Van Basten often worked outside the penalty area setting other players up as well as scoring. They were by no means similar player types. A Lineker-Müller combination would be wrong IMO.

I like what you did with your midfield and your lateral defenders. As far as Van Basten-Muller, maybe a good comparison would be the way Menotti used Mario Kempes and Leopoldo Luque for Argentina in 78. The difference is that they also had a wing and sometimes two, but I see how you'd have that covered with your defenders moving up, plus if you give Maradona freedom to move all over the place he will open up the field with his runs.

[tpmazembe]

Also are we still going 14 rounds? Or are we just doing 11?I think we agreed to add one more round (12th) in which each team would make 3 simultaneous picks for their subs. Without denigrating the goalie position, it probably should be 3 field players to complement your teams for the imaginary tournament.

Something like:
-------------------------------------------------------------
Team C subs:

Player C12: Name, position, career highligths
Player C13: Name, position, career highlights
Player C14: Name, position, career highlights
+
Reasoning for picking these three players individually and/or as a group to fortify your team's bench.
-------------------------------------------------------------
As it will be the 12th Round the picks would follow the E,D,C,B,A selection slots.

I think going past the 12th round might be too much -- I've been impressed with how we've kept up after the timid start.

We can then begin the "smack-off" :)

Plus, we can begin an analysis phase...which includes understanding why each Team made its picks when they did, and which players were considered and didn't make the cut, and which greats weren't considered at all. As soon as I can I'll put some of this stuff in spreadsheet format and see what we can garner statistically.

[Excape Goat]

[size=3]Then she asked me how I knew about such things, and ends up offering to introduce me to her model girlfriendsize]


This is more impressive than the parts on the Mighty Magyars. :)


BTW, Djalma Santos were not a surprise pick. Our team would have taken him if he was aroud a pick or two later. but he was gone.

[Dark Savante]

I disagree. Imagine if we had selected two out-and-out wingers in our team, we would have been extremely vulnerable in our central line with only Deschamps with defensive qualities. Believe me, I have been thinking about flashy names who could dribble a few players in a phonebooth out on the wings, but I don't think they would make our team stronger due to the players we already have selected.

Cafu/Breitner are attack-minded and I believe they are best used by not having two Garrincha-type wingers in front of them. That will restrict the full-backs and they won't blossom to the full potential. We have a pretty heavy offensive with two strikers and Maradona already. Should we have two wingers more we might just tip over and be too heavy.

It all comes down to the total package of selecting a best possible working starting eleven. You have to give and take at some positions. In a dreamworld you could select a Jairzinho-Maradona-Platini-Garrincha midfield, but would it be efficient?

While I'm on the subject of commenting the team, I have also seen some people question the Van Basten-Müller partnership as one #9 too many. They might have played with the same shirt number (Müller used 13 often, but still..), but they were very different as players. Müller was the box player, Van Basten often worked outside the penalty area setting other players up as well as scoring. They were by no means similar player types. A Lineker-Müller combination would be wrong IMO.

You seem to forget that there are several midfield systems you had the choice of choosing from? I don't think the choice had to be as extreme as either or between a 2d-mid system and a flat 4 winger system. You had the option of a diamond - which I believed you would go for - which seems to me to have been the best system for your strikers.

Two rock solid players on the left and the right of Deschamps who were adept in both defence and attack would have eased the considerably stress on Maradona. I don't buy playing a double #9 strkeforce as anything but penalty area assassins - they were both good footballers but they were great strikers - with the option of all those great left and right sided players throughout 'all-time' I'm surprised you went for a DM/CM I can think of a legendary right sided Italian from the 90's who was every bit the lionheart Tardelli was with added bonus of playing and solidly controlling the right side of the field in both attack and defense, I really expected you to pick him as he'd fit into a diamond, supply goals, crosses, thru-balls, defensive help and allow your wingback on that side the chance to overlap without having to worry - I'll say his name when this is all done, maybe you overlooked him...or maybe he was never in your plans?? or you had the intention to play 2 d mids all along?

Whatever the reasoning I'm surprised your team would take Tardelli. he was brought up in our discussions by a team member, but Neeskens was still available, so I'm not belittling your pick, just surprised by it. You have only 3 recognised goal threats now, maybe 4 if Brietner gets in on the act, that does seem a little light in consideration of the magnitude of such a draft. Maybe you have some aces up your sleeves for later rounds..

Another note that surprises me about taking Tardelli is that I think he would have been around in another 2weeks time. Can other teams confirm this? was he in anyones plans for the next two picks? . Team B is a unique entity, I like that they are maverick, it's always a team like theirs that'll come along burst everyone elses balloons, lol.

[Dark Savante]

the only pick so far in the whole draft that has been remotely close to shocking was when Djalma Santos was picked as early as #14.

Maverick, as I said. :) Each to their own.

[Dark Savante]

I think we agreed to add one more round (12th) in which each team would make 3 simultaneous picks for their subs. Without denigrating the goalie position, it probably should be 3 field players to complement your teams for the imaginary tournament.

Something like:
-------------------------------------------------------------
Team C subs:

Player C12: Name, position, career highligths
Player C13: Name, position, career highlights
Player C14: Name, position, career highlights
+
Reasoning for picking these three players individually and/or as a group to fortify your team's bench.
-------------------------------------------------------------
As it will be the 12th Round the picks would follow the E,D,C,B,A selection slots.

I think going past the 12th round might be too much -- I've been impressed with how we've kept up after the timid start.

We can then begin the "smack-off" :)

Plus, we can begin an analysis phase...which includes understanding why each Team made its picks when they did, and which players were considered and didn't make the cut, and which greats weren't considered at all. As soon as I can I'll put some of this stuff in spreadsheet format and see what we can garner statistically.

t, wouldn't it be slightl unfair for any team to be able to take 3 players in one go? It seems to be a bit extreme a jump considering how we've built this thing with one pick a week to all of a sudden be taking 3 in a go?

Just a thought.

[comme]

I don't think it is unfair as my team will get the first 3 picks. Your team will get the second 3 DS, so keep it down or you'll spoil it for both of us.

[Dark Savante]

I don't think it is unfair as my team will get the first 3 picks. Your team will get the second 3 DS, so keep it down or you'll spoil it for both of us.

Yea but at the rate this is going you'll take at least 2/3 of my favoured picks :p lol

[Bauser]

Two rock solid players on the left and the right of Deschamps who were adept in both defence and attack would have eased the considerably stress on Maradona.

Yep, that's why Tardelli was picked. He wasn't the player stuck in one place in midfield. Tardelli could do anything required from a midfielder. He could play wide if needed.

Whatever the reasoning I'm surprised your team would take Tardelli. he was brought up in our discussions by a team member, but Neeskens was still available, so I'm not belittling your pick, just surprised by it. You have only 3 recognised goal threats now, maybe 4 if Brietner gets in on the act, that does seem a little light in consideration of the magnitude of such a draft.

Throw in Passarella as well. With Maradona, Van Basten, Müller and Breitner we have 5 players who score often out of the 8 we have picked in total so far. I don't think goalscoring will be a major problem for us. Appreciate your comments though. :)

[Dark Savante]

Yep, that's why Tardelli was picked. He wasn't the player stuck in one place in midfield. Tardelli could do anything required from a midfielder. He could play wide if needed.

Tardelli's best position is CM. Although he could go wide it wasn't a forte. I was reffering to a designated, naturalised right sided player. Heh, Tardelli is your pick and I'm sure you know full well how you'll play him. I'm just making observations from the outside really. Shrug.



Throw in Passarella as well. With Maradona, Van Basten, Müller and Breitner we have 5 players who score often out of the 8 we have picked in total so far. I don't think goalscoring will be a major problem for us.

I wonder if you're reffering to Set plays with Passarella or about daring to have him go forward in open play? I was making my statement in regards to open play because I think it would be one hell of a rish to have your CB go forward and vacate the defence when you have a Eusebio, Pelem Ronaldo, Puskas etc, etc eager to exploit the situation. So from open play (for me) it still stands at 4..but again you know how you'll play your team (D.S awaits team B's masterstroke :) )


Appreciate your comments though. :)

All given in good spirit, no antagonism or bad intentions. I've enjoyed this thread and the contributors themselves, good stuff.