Draft of Drafts

[comme]

Vava and Pele.

[tpmazembe]

Vava and Pele.
correct....can't get much by you on trivia.

[tpmazembe]

Have you guys seen this?

http://football.guardian.co.uk/breakingnews/story/0,1273,-4008538,00.html

In another one of these internet polls Zidane was voted the best European player of the past 50 years.

Seems that our panel of experts would disagree with this.

comme...how do you feel? :)

[Spartak]

Let’s deconstruct past and present.

Past. I don't follow media to make my conclusions, so having seen both IMO Ronaldo's career to date trumps Sheva's in numerous aspects. Not the least is their goals per game in Serie A:

Ronaldo - .72 (includes his injury years)
Schevy - .57
Schevy removing his poorest year - .65 goals/game
http://www.soccer-europe.com/Profiles/Shevchenko.html (http://www.soccer-europe.com/Profiles/Shevchenko.html)

That is a direct comparison.
Ronaldo's goals per game in Serie A is impressive. But remember this about Sheva, until this year he has been playing as a withdrawn forward, ala Bergkamp, behind Biehoff first and then Pippo in recent years. He was just as much a creator as he was a scorer. But when he plays as the target man he is even more deadly, as this year proves.
Plus, I could argue that Inter has not had the cohesive midfield play that AC has over the past half-decade. So for the past, its Ronaldo’s play that has overshadowed Schevy, not his nationality.
Well, you obviously haven't watched Milan much prior to last year. Milan's midfield was awful with players like De Ascentis, Giunti, Pablo Garcia, etc. Milan was not the same team you see today that was before the 2003 season. Milan lacked any creativity in Sheva's first 3 seasons. I was just watching a replay of Milan's 6-0 thrashing of Inter in 2001 and Milan lined up with Kaladze, Serginho, Gattuso, and Giunti in midfield. That is hardly a world class midfield.

He was one un-called penalty against Juve away from doing that...

How far has Vieiri brought them?

Is Scheva the reason AC are going to win this season….he’s a contributor but not carrying them the way Ronaldo carried Inter that year.
Ronaldo did not carry Inter that year. He was more or less a bit part player. Vieri and Recoba were just as important. But you can't deny that he came up small against Lazio in the final game. He even knew he failed when everybody could see him balling like a little girl on the sideline. That was the moment he knew he wasn't coming back to Inter. Sheva is not carrying Milan either, but I never said he was.


Present. Your right, let’s make it my net-worth since its minimal :)

You mention WC’98 but ignore the WC’02 final? Whatever happened in ’98 is over now, he buried that in ’02. The Final day of Serie A in ’02 he was 10 games back from a 2 year injury layoff (most of those games he didn’t play the full 90)!!! He more than overcame that by coming through in the stretch last year for Real when the pressure was just as strong. I mentioned WC '98 because he failed. I'm just reminding you that Ronaldo is not perfect and your bet would be a very risking one. Besides, Ronaldo was not the most important player on that team. I think Ronaldinho and Rivaldo were doing more for the team than Ronaldo was. Like I said before, if you take Ronaldo off Brazil and switch him with Sheva, Brazil are still world champions.


None of the other strikers you named have proven themselves more capable of doing it under pressure.

Raul and Spain? Vieri and open sitters against S.Korea, or on that same last day of Serie A ‘02 you mentioned? Shevy in last year’s CL Final scored the last PK, but looked rather pedestrian the rest of the match -- frankly, he’s the least tested under severe pressure because he hasn’t been involved in many winner take all situations.

This is a personal preference, but I’ll take Ronaldo in that situation.
Since your memory of Sheva is vague I will refresh it ;) Back in 1998/99 Sheva took a club, and a nation as well, and put them on his back. His perfromance in the '98/'99 CL was remarkable. He scored about 90% of Dynamo Kiev's goals in leading them to the brink of the CL final. He came up huge throughout the tournament in a team that relied upon him to do everything. I call that coming up big on the big occasion. He has to do even more for Ukraine on the international scene. That is where he falls behind Ronaldo. Do you hinestly think that Ronaldo could lead a team singlehandedly like Sheva can. I don't. He is just not a very strong person. He likes to be on teams where the burden is shared.

[Dark Savante]

Spartak, your vehement hatrid of Ronaldo for what you see as betraye; at Inter completely clouds your judgement. I'm surprised at you mixing politics with goings on on the pitch! Comparing Shevchenko with Ronaldo is a joke. One is an all timer at the age of 27 the other is a superb player for this day and age but no George Best..or Ryan Giggs..At anytime when a case can be argued for Shevchenko there has been a number of other strikers just as worthy of placement above him...Batistuta, Vieri, VNR even Henry the consumate choker has claim of parity to Sheva. Not to say that these are bad players because each and every one can be superb, but up until this season not one of them has come close to the mesmeric performances Ronaldo put in for 3seasons in a row. Even now his goal scoring ratios top them all except Henry so the suggestion is Ronaldo has to be overweight for others to catch him up?

[Dark Savante]

I am surprised you would say this considering he has led La Liga for what will be 2seasons straight!?! My only concern with 'current Ronaldo' is his desire to play. It's quite maddening to know that this guy can be so much better than he's displaying at this point, but maybe a fear of re-injury ensures he plays within himself? That last serious injury when he tried to be Ronaldo96 again on his comeback for Inter may have left long lasting mental scars so we may never see him really push himself again!




2questions:

1. Do you consider Ronaldo as unmarkable/uncontainable? For arguements sake lets take Ronaldo96.

2. If you do consider him unmarkable, are there other strikers you would personally put in that bracket as well?

tpamzembe? :confused:

[tpmazembe]

Ronaldo did not carry Inter that year. He was more or less a bit part player. Vieri and Recoba were just as important. But you can't deny that he came up small against Lazio in the final game. He even knew he failed when everybody could see him balling like a little girl on the sideline. That was the moment he knew he wasn't coming back to Inter. Sheva is not carrying Milan either, but I never said he was.
I mentioned WC '98 because he failed. I'm just reminding you that Ronaldo is not perfect and your bet would be a very risking one. Besides, Ronaldo was not the most important player on that team. I think Ronaldinho and Rivaldo were doing more for the team than Ronaldo was. Like I said before, if you take Ronaldo off Brazil and switch him with Sheva, Brazil are still world champions..You are mistaken if you are indicating him being a bit player in 1997-1998. That season Ronaldo did carry Inter to second place, and would have won the scudetto if not for the no-call on him for a penalty against Juve. Then he went on to carry them to the UEFA Cup title in the same season. He more than showed his ability to carry a team.Vieiri didn’t join Inter until the year after ’98-99. That squad’s whole potency rested squarely on Ronaldo’s shoulders.

You are referring to his 2001-2002 season at Inter where in fact he was only available for portions of 10 games -- still scored 7 goals. That is the season you chastise him for not coming through.Why is the failure his and not his team's? Can't have it both ways, he can't be expected to deliver the title without being fit to play all season.

He cried because he was frustrated, no weakness in that.

Again, Spartak you avoid his accomplishment to focus on negatives. He overcame '98 (Brasil would not have made the '98 finals without him, no way) with two goals in the finals in '02. I know for sure Brazil won with him, I'm not sure they would have won with Sheva -- that's pure conjecture. Plus, you focus on Inter missing out the Scudetto in '02 -- more having to do with the players who played full time for the whole season, like Recoba and Vieri -- yet ignore his obviously crucial contributions to Real winning La Liga last year.

I don't want to disparage any of Scheva's accomplishment because I rate him highly as a player, but he hasn't been tested like Ronaldo. As for being the man for the Ukraine, when you are a lone star on a team of also rans its easier to look like a superstar. Ronaldo stands out amongsts stars on all teams he plays on.

We already know who has been the more productive in the past, the numbers prove it. You and I will have the pleasure of watching the next 5 years unfold to see who will be more productive going forward.

PS - on that midfield comparison, I'll do some digging, but I don't believe one midfield player from that Inter team is still on the squad (depends on whether Zanetti counts as mid or RB). They were shabby in their own right.

[tpmazembe]

I am surprised you would say this considering he has led La Liga for what will be 2seasons straight!?! My only concern with 'current Ronaldo' is his desire to play. It's quite maddening to know that this guy can be so much better than he's displaying at this point, but maybe a fear of re-injury ensures he plays within himself? That last serious injury when he tried to be Ronaldo96 again on his comeback for Inter may have left long lasting mental scars so we may never see him really push himself again!

2questions:

1. Do you consider Ronaldo as unmarkable/uncontainable? For arguements sake lets take Ronaldo96.

2. If you do consider him unmarkable, are there other strikers you would personally put in that bracket as well?Didn't mean to ignore your post, just got caught up in the debate with Spartak.

No player is unmarkable.

From game to game the greats can be marked out. The thing is great players over the course of time will "get theirs". They make the most of the few opportunities they get, because for the most part they will be closely marked and not touch the ball in obvious scoring situations. They help their teammates by causing match-up problems and with spacing. And finally, they produce moments of brilliance that energize their squad, or demoralize the opposition.

Sometimes, when on their day, they are unmarkable, but that's not a constant state of being.

TEAM A : Eusebio
TEAM B : G.Muller, VanBasten
TEAM C: Ronaldo
TEAM E : Puskas

Looking at the no.9's picked to date, I'd say they all fit that mold. [except that Gerd was more ruthlessly efficient than brilliant in my view]. The guy we had as our other choice fits that category as well, and I can think of a handful more (but don't want to help the other teams).

Ronaldo of 96 or today will convert for our squad (Team C) with efficiency and flair.

[Dark Savante]

Didn't mean to ignore your post, just got caught up in the debate with Spartak.

No player is unmarkable.

From game to game the greats can be marked out. The thing is great players over the course of time will "get theirs". They make the most of the few opportunities they get, because for the most part they will be closely marked and not touch the ball in obvious scoring situations. They help their teammates by causing match-up problems and with spacing. And finally, they produce moments of brilliance that energize their squad, or demoralize the opposition.

Sometimes, when on their day, they are unmarkable, but that's not a constant state of being.

TEAM A : Eusebio
TEAM B : G.Muller, VanBasten
TEAM C: Ronaldo
TEAM E : Puskas

Looking at the no.9's picked to date, I'd say they all fit that mold. [except that Gerd was more ruthlessly efficient than brilliant in my view]. The guy we had as our other choice fits that category as well, and I can think of a handful more (but don't want to help the other teams).

Ronaldo of 96 or today will convert for our squad (Team C) with efficiency and flair.

ok. I see Ronaldo as the most unique entity as a #9 to kick a ball. I can think of a marker or a defence I'd like to put up against any other player ecept Ronaldo96-98. I believe current Ronaldo can be marked almost completely out of a game however.

[argentine soccer fan]

TEAM B:

Members: Bauser (c), Auriaprottu, Papa Bouba Diop

Round: 6 (Week 6)
Selection: 4
Total picks: 29

Player: PAUL BREITNER

Position: Left or right back / central midfield



A flamboyant and very intelligent player. And what an awesome team they had at Bayern Munich back then! Already two of his teammates have been picked in this draft, and I think at least two more are be worthy of consideration.

[argentine soccer fan]

Team A
Members: Ombak, Skipshady, C-towner, Argentine Soccer Fan (C-towner replaced Motterman)

Round 6 (Week 6) Selection 5
30th overall pick

Player: Sir Stanley Matthews, 'The Wizard of Dribble'
Born: 2/1/1915, Hanley, Stoke-on-Trent, England
Position: Right Winger
Career Span: 1932-1965
Nationality: England

Club Teams:
Stoke City (1932-47, 1961-65)
Blackpool (1947-61)

Caps: 84 (including wartime internationals)
Made his debut for England in Cardiff, in a 4-0 win over Wales in 1934

(Remarkably, he was ommited from England's team which lost to the United States at the 1950 World Cup finals in Brazil in one of the biggest upsets of all time)

Career Highlights:
1948: Britain's first footballer of the year
1948: Played a key role in one of England's greatest victories, by 4-0 over Italy in Turin
1953: Won the FA cup with Blackpool against Bolton, inspiring a comeback from a 3-1 deficit.
1955: At age 40, scored five goals in an international match against Scottland
1956: European Footballer of the year
1957: Awarded OBE (Officer of British Empire)
1963: Footballer of the year
1965: First footballer to be Knighted

Sir Stanley Matthews was the first great footballer of the modern era. Arguably the best English player ever and considered by many the best dribbler of all time. In the 1930's and 1940's Matthews was without rival as the greatest outside-right in the world. Opposing left-backs feared their duels with him as Matthews brought the ball towards them, fainted one way, and acelerated clear another. His subtle body swerves, aceleration, and superb ball control unsettled virtually every defender he faced. He continued to play with great success into the 1960's, and retired at the age of 50 after a 33 year career in which he never received a single booking.

This selection: Unanimous

[comme]

Have you guys seen this?

http://football.guardian.co.uk/breakingnews/story/0,1273,-4008538,00.html

In another one of these internet polls Zidane was voted the best European player of the past 50 years.

Seems that our panel of experts would disagree with this.

comme...how do you feel? :)

I think it shows the natural bias of the modern audience (especially an internet poll) towards modern players. The fact that Costacurta is in there shows how much that poll is worth.

[Dark Savante]

I think it shows the natural bias of the modern audience (especially an internet poll) towards modern players. The fact that Costacurta is in there shows how much that poll is worth.

Ouch!!!!

[lanman]

Team APlayer: Sir Stanley Matthews, 'The Wizard of Dribble'

Great choice - easily the most naturally gifted English player of all time. The fact that he played on into his fifties would possibly give him claim to be one of the most naturally gifted player ever regardless of nationality - even watching footage of him in the twilight of his career shows that skill will always overcome physical ability. Had we been playing with two wingers he would have been one of my first picks, unfortunately the team comes before individuals.

[Bauser]

I think it shows the natural bias of the modern audience (especially an internet poll) towards modern players. The fact that Costacurta is in there shows how much that poll is worth.
Not even Kenny Dalglish made the list. :confused:

But someone like Cantona is there! :D

[argentine soccer fan]

Great choice - easily the most naturally gifted English player of all time. The fact that he played on into his fifties would possibly give him claim to be one of the most naturally gifted player ever regardless of nationality - even watching footage of him in the twilight of his career shows that skill will always overcome physical ability. Had we been playing with two wingers he would have been one of my first picks, unfortunately the team comes before individuals.

Matthews was amazing. Not only he played until he was 50, but even at the end he was still a dominant player who helped his local club Stoke City return to the first division. And he insisted he could have played for several more years. Can anyone doubt him?

Our team was surprised that he was still available for our 30th pick. I think maybe it is because he played in an era in which tactics and formations were so different. But the game has come full circle and coaches nowadays understand the value of old-fashioned wing play.

I am curious. Other than Ianman's team, did any of the other teams consider taking him, and why did you pass on him?

Anyway, I think he adds a dimension to our team which makes us virtually impossible to stop.

[tpmazembe]

Team A
Members: Ombak, Skipshady, C-towner, Argentine Soccer Fan (C-towner replaced Motterman)

Round 6 (Week 6) Selection 5
30th overall pick

Player: Sir Stanley Matthews, 'The Wizard of Dribble'
Born: 2/1/1915, Hanley, Stoke-on-Trent, England
Position: Right Winger
Career Span: 1932-1965
Nationality: England

1953: Won the FA cup with Blackpool against Bolton, inspiring a comeback from a 3-1 deficit.
You guys couldn't re-unite the dynamic duo (Pele-Garrincha), so you go for for the next best thing?

We did not consider him, though he should definetely have been.

For such a long career -- 32 years -- isn't it odd that he only won one competition of note?

Ianman, with an offensive minded Left Back (or a Giggs type mid), you can still get the width desired without having to have a dedicated left-winger to complement Matthews...no?

[tpmazembe]

I think it shows the natural bias of the modern audience (especially an internet poll) towards modern players. The fact that Costacurta is in there shows how much that poll is worth.
Yep.

Beckham, but no Netzer.....

[tpmazembe]

Team Re-cap after 6th Round:

TEAM A : Pele, Moore, Eusebio, Didi, Rikjaard, Matthews
TEAM B : Maradona, Passarella, G.Muller, VanBasten, Deschamps, Breitner
TEAM C : DiStefano, Garrincha, Platini, Fachetti, Mattaus, Ronaldo
TEAM D : Cryuff, Baresi, Dj.Santos, Maldini, Zico, Gullit
TEAM E : Beckenbauer, Puskas, Best, Zidane, Bozsik, R.Carlos

We are half way through this excercise [great job], any patterns?

Are we giving too little credit to the pre-60's greats?

7 Brasilian, 4 German, 4 Dutch, 3 Argentines, 3 French, 3 Italian, 2 Hungarian, 2 English, 1 N. Irish, 1 Portuguese.....player representation by one of the four multiple-WC winning countries is noticeably absent from this list.

In terms of club teams: AC Milan of 80's has 5 players -- almost half of one of its starting line-ups -- in the top 30! Are they then the best club team of all time by a wide margin? I don't think so.....

No goalies taken...only 1 Right Back.

[Dark Savante]

Matthews was amazing. Not only he played until he was 50, but even at the end he was still a dominant player who helped his local club Stoke City return to the first division. And he insisted he could have played for several more years. Can anyone doubt him?

Our team was surprised that he was still available for our 30th pick. I think maybe it is because he played in an era in which tactics and formations were so different. But the game has come full circle and coaches nowadays understand the value of old-fashioned wing play.

I am curious. Other than Ianman's team, did any of the other teams consider taking him, and why did you pass on him?

Anyway, I think he adds a dimension to our team which makes us virtually impossible to stop.

I'm not keen on this selection. On the contrary I think he limits your team, makes them more linear. You're going to need one hell of a RB!!