Draft of Drafts

[Dark Savante]

Additionally, he can create his own shot,

this has to be the understatement of the draft thus far :) methinks someone is being modest in their assesment here ;)

[Dark Savante]

The man is a true legend, he was one of my 4 possibles for our pick on Friday.
I think that by the end of his career he wil be a top 5/6 of all timer.

This is an interesting statement. Lets assume He goes on to score 3 or more goals in the next world cup or is even top scorer there will this not officially register him as the best striker ever?

What exactly do you think he has left do to be #1 in your eyes? If memory serves me correctly. Whenever he has played a full season he has been the top striker in whatever league he is in right? What more can he do to alter your opinion from top 5 to #1 ?

[Spartak]

This is an interesting statement. Lets assume He goes on to score 3 or more goals in the next world cup or is even top scorer there will this not officially register him as the best striker ever?

What exactly do you think he has left do to be #1 in your eyes? If memory serves me correctly. Whenever he has played a full season he has been the top striker in whatever league he is in right? What more can he do to alter your opinion from top 5 to #1 ?
Ronaldo actually never led Serie A in scoring. Ronaldo was the best player I have ever seen form '96-'98. But he hasn't touched that form since and there are a number of strikers I would take over him now. I will not shed a tear like some of you guys for this pick.

[Dark Savante]

Ronaldo actually never led Serie A in scoring. Ronaldo was the best player I have ever seen form '96-'98. But he hasn't touched that form since and there are a number of strikers I would take over him now. I will not shed a tear like some of you guys for this pick.

hmm at inter did he not top the charts?

Of course the current 'Fat Ronaldo' is not the one they picked here I'm sure. Ronaldo96-98 is the selection I'm sure....'Fat Ronaldo' is still scoring a ton of goals none-the-less, but he is lazy and more of a conversion king these days. Nothing the gym woudn't fix and takes nothing away from his ability.in fact I think it enhances it. How many out of shape strikers would still be top 3 in the world? It displays the fact tht he can adapt his style and he can only get fitter and thus better from the state he is in now.

[comme]

This is an interesting statement. Lets assume He goes on to score 3 or more goals in the next world cup or is even top scorer there will this not officially register him as the best striker ever?

What exactly do you think he has left do to be #1 in your eyes? If memory serves me correctly. Whenever he has played a full season he has been the top striker in whatever league he is in right? What more can he do to alter your opinion from top 5 to #1 ?

Top scorer in the history of the world cup does not make you the best striker ever though, ask Gerd Muller.

I think he would have to win at least 1 CL and a few more titles. His international record is excellent in modern day football but it doesn't compare to that of Puskas, Pele, Muller or 2 strikers yet to be picked.

It will take time for me to rate him as No. 1.

[Dark Savante]

Top scorer in the history of the world cup does not make you the best striker ever though, ask Gerd Muller.

I think he would have to win at least 1 CL and a few more titles. His international record is excellent in modern day football but it doesn't compare to that of Puskas, Pele, Muller or 2 strikers yet to be picked.

It will take time for me to rate him as No. 1.

I don't think it's fair to compare to a few in the past who had numerous cakewalk games that were just there for them to rack up numbers..some of the old school guys came up against defences that were simply a joke and could rack up 3's 4's even 5's for fun..in the modern game where every single team you face is professional and fit Rnaldo's achievements surpass those of players from yore, imo of course.

The CL thing I can see your point with however.

[argentine soccer fan]

Top scorer in the history of the world cup does not make you the best striker ever though, ask Gerd Muller.


Agreed. Otherwise I'd have to argue that Jose Sanfilippo was the best Argentine striker ever.

Ronaldo is an awesome player. I remember when I first saw him, I thought he might become the best player ever. I have seen players with more power, players with more speed, players with more ball control. But nobody who combined all three like Ronaldo. I was dazzled by the way he controlled the ball at top speed.

Obviously he has slowed down due to the injuries. But one thing that I discovered while watching him play out of shape was how high his football IQ really is. Even when he is out of shape and doesn't have the speed, he can still make a difference because he is a such a smart player. We saw it at the last World Cup, and we are seeing it this year.

It is interesting to debate his place in history. We can look at the strikers we selected ahead of him. Pele, Puskas, Eusebio, Muller, Van Basten. (Obviously players of different characteristics, but we can compare them based on their impact on the game.)

I think if Ronaldo stays healthy and in shape for seven/eight more years and plays to his 2003 level, he will be ranked up there with Muller and Van Basten, or maybe even ahead of them.

If, in addition, he is a protagonist in the next two World Cups and in European club cups then we might mention him alongside Puskas and Eusebio.

To be mentioned next to Pele, he'd probably have to revert to pre-injury form, plus be a key player in leading Brazil to wins in the next two World Cups.

[tpmazembe]

Ronaldo actually never led Serie A in scoring. Ronaldo was the best player I have ever seen form '96-'98. But he hasn't touched that form since and there are a number of strikers I would take over him now. I will not shed a tear like some of you guys for this pick.Name three and reasons why.

There is no striker in the world playing today that I would take over him for one game to decide my life, or a mini-tournament as we have envisioned here. Schevchenko is good, but even on current form Ronaldo trumps him IMO (no contest pre-injury form). Vieira bags a ton of goals, but never seems to bag one when it really counts, Henry is not a pure goal scorer....

For a long drawn out League campaign my answer would change.

Think of it this way, Schevy is the same age (born '76) and Henry is only a year younger ('77). If they all stopped playing today there would be no contest on their relative places in history. Therefore these two will have to outperform him by a substantial measure for the next 5-8 years to be compared to him over their career lifespan. Anyone willing to take that bet?

Isn't this fun? We all have our negative biases:comme & zidane, me & figo, spartak & ronaldo....;)

Obviously he has slowed down due to the injuries. But one thing that I discovered while watching him play out of shape was how high his football IQ really is. Even when he is out of shape and doesn't have the speed, he can still make a difference because he is a such a smart player. We saw it at the last World Cup, and we are seeing it this year.
Agreed, the man is a complete player (other than his aerial game deficiencies as noted). His instincts are intact, and over 30 meters he is still a danger to any defense or man marker.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
We actually ended up flipping a coin between him and another striker still available [we had one vote each for Ronaldo and the other guy, and I was ambivalent given my assessment of both as equally valuable to the team. I then preceeded to use the most scientific of methods and flipped a coin to break the tie].

[argentine soccer fan]

We actually ended up flipping a coin between him and another striker still available [we had one vote each for Ronaldo and the other guy, and I was ambivalent given my assessment of both as equally valuable to the team. I then preceeded to use the most scientific of methods and flipped a coin to break the tie].

I wonder who that was. After we finish picking we should have a thread discussing all the players that we considered picking and why they didn't make the final cut.

[Dark Savante]

For a long drawn out League campaign my answer would change.

I am surprised you would say this considering he has led La Liga for what will be 2seasons straight!?! My only concern with 'current Ronaldo' is his desire to play. It's quite maddening to know that this guy can be so much better than he's displaying at this point, but maybe a fear of re-injury ensures he plays within himself? That last serious injury when he tried to be Ronaldo96 again on his comeback for Inter may have left long lasting mental scars so we may never see him really push himself again!



We actually ended up flipping a coin between him and another striker still available [we had one vote each for Ronaldo and the other guy, and I was ambivalent given my assessment of both as equally valuable to the team. I then preceeded to use the most scientific of methods and flipped a coin to break the tie].

2questions:

1. Do you consider Ronaldo as unmarkable/uncontainable? For arguements sake lets take Ronaldo96.

2. If you do consider him unmarkable, are there other strikers you would personally put in that bracket as well?

[Dark Savante]

Agreed. Otherwise I'd have to argue that Jose Sanfilippo was the best Argentine striker ever..

But seriously, to many Gerd Muller is the best striker ever and his WC record only cements that. I see no relation between Sanfilippo and the point I'm making with Ronaldo. The consideration must be the fact that if he goes to the next world cup and scores 3 or more he will become the #1 scorer in the competition ever and it will display a longevity to have gone to three different world cups and score goals and not do a blitzcrieg at one competition like a certain Frenchman who has double figures but is never going to be considered as #1 striker.



It is interesting to debate his place in history. We can look at the strikers we selected ahead of him. Pele, Puskas, Eusebio, Muller, Van Basten. (Obviously players of different characteristics, but we can compare them based on their impact on the game.).

I think Ronaldo has had more impact on the game then all but 2players on that list. The big difference in my eyes is that the others could galvanise a team with their teamwork and awareness spacially, but Ronaldo didn't have to do that as he could take on an entire defence and midfield from the half way line while running straight to goal that is simply unheard of. Knowing that this guy will collect the ball and just run thru your team, destroying any tactic you have to stop him was unfathomable for opposition coaches...the likes of that has never been seen before i.e 9/10 times this guy is going to run straight to your goal and score! So i would say Ronaldo changed the way many of us think of the game, his like is a one of a kind so his impact is relative to his uniqueness.


I think if Ronaldo stays healthy and in shape for seven/eight more years and plays to his 2003 level, he will be ranked up there with Muller and Van Basten, or maybe even ahead of them. .

Honestly, the arguement for parity with Muller is one I can see why Ronaldo has a bit more to do, but vs Van Basten? I can't see this one. Internationally he's surpassed him by a massive distance already and clubwise one has to consider that Van Basten was a component in what is consdered to be one of the top 5 teams of all time! Ronaldo has never had such luck. At Madrid he does the business only for that defence - or lack of one - to minus his achievements and at Inter he was on a decent team but certainly not a world beating one. All he can do is deliver his side of the bargain - goals - and he does, after that matters are out of his hands. Van Basten had the luxury of knowing that if he scores that team, that defence, is going to lock the opposition down!


If, in addition, he is a protagonist in the next two World Cups and in European club cups then we might mention him alongside Puskas and Eusebio.

Again I'd say he has surpassed both regarding World Cups. A world cup winner and a World cup runner up, both on the back of his goals. His Euro-cup career is going to be determined by factors other than his personal propensity for goalscoring.


To be mentioned next to Pele, he'd probably have to revert to pre-injury form, plus be a key player in leading Brazil to wins in the next two World Cups.

Agreed. Pele is a stretch. What is crazy to think tho is that it is not unfeasible that Ronaldo could claim 2more world cups if his body holds up. Maybe that's something for us to discuss at the back end of 2010 :p

[argentine soccer fan]

Dark Savant, lets be fair to your unnamed Frenchman. If he hadn't suffered a horrible injury that forced him to leave the game at such a young age, who knows how his career would have evolved? We might very well be talking about him as one of the best, but I guess we'll never know.

My point about Sanfilippo was to illustrate that the number of goals that you score doesn't tell the whole story. I am not demeaning great poachers like him. It takes a great talent and instinct to be that type of a player and he can be extremely valuable to a team. But we cannot make the argument that just because X guy scored the most goals he must be the best striker. I certainly don't consider JS to be the greatest Argentine striker even though he has the numbers as the top Argentine scorer of all time.

As far as Ronaldo, I was thinking in terms of him becoming a legend of the game overall, not just the World Cup. Obviously if you limit it to the World Cup he's done much more than Van Basten already. But at the club level, if he gets out of the game tomorrow, I wouldn't argue that he's surpassed him. Maybe you could make a case that at his peak he was better, but not in terms of his overall cumulative career.

[Merengue]

The Ronaldo of 95-98 was one of the most devastating players I have seen. I am impressed with how he has changed his game post injury and his successes with Brazil are impressive. He still scores plenty of goals with Real Madrid but he isn't the player he once was and I wouldn't currently rate him one of the world's 4-5 best strikers. Actually I still wish Madrid had Fernando Morientes who I think is a more complete player. Better touch, better passer, more of a team player, much better header and as he has shown this year, and before Ronaldo arrived at Real Madrid, a deadly finisher as well.

If Ronaldo has a successful World Cup in 2006 and can help Real Madrid win a Champions League title he will go down as one of the game's greatest strikers but my point is he isn't the player now he was pre-injury and currently I'd rate Henry, Van Nistelrooy, Shevchenko, Vieri and Morientes as better players.

[Spartak]

Name three and reasons why.

There is no striker in the world playing today that I would take over him for one game to decide my life, or a mini-tournament as we have envisioned here. Schevchenko is good, but even on current form Ronaldo trumps him IMO (no contest pre-injury form). Vieira bags a ton of goals, but never seems to bag one when it really counts, Henry is not a pure goal scorer....

For a long drawn out League campaign my answer would change.

Think of it this way, Schevy is the same age (born '76) and Henry is only a year younger ('77). If they all stopped playing today there would be no contest on their relative places in history. Therefore these two will have to outperform him by a substantial measure for the next 5-8 years to be compared to him over their career lifespan. Anyone willing to take that bet?

Isn't this fun? We all have our negative biases:comme & zidane, me & figo, spartak & ronaldo....;)

I would take Henry, Raul, Sheva, and Van Nistlerooy right now over Ronaldo. The only thing that distinguishes Ronaldo over Sheva is that he is Brazilian. Sheva's career at Dynamo Kiev/Milan versus Ronaldo career at Cruzeiro/PSV/Barcelona/Inter/Real Madrid is about equal. The difference is that Ronaldo gets the chance to showcase his skills on the biggest international stage, the World Cup. Take away all his accomplishments for Brazil and Ronaldo isn't as revered as he is now. And let me ask you this, if Sheva was on the Brazil squad at WC 2002 do they still win the WC? I think they do. Sheva gets less recognition because he plays for Ukraine which might never make it to a major championship. And I would definately advise you not to stake your life on Ronaldo in one game, because if you do you are as good as dead. Ronaldo is very weak psychologically, just look at the WC '98 Final and the final day of the Serie A in 2002. With the whole Inter fiasco it showed even more that he is not a strong person and is in fact an **************. Now this is coming from a Milan fan so I have no love for Inter, but what he did to Inter in leaving them was a disgrace. Moratti treated Ronaldo like his own son and Inter guided him through all those horrible injuries back to the player he was at WC 2002. And what does he do, he asked to be sold because he felt Inter couldn't win and a player like him needs to be winning trophies. If he was trully a world great he would have found a way to lift Inter to Lo Scudetto. He could not do it and knew he wasn't capable of doing it. He has severe self esteem problems and can't handle failure. He loves it when people praise him. Thus the easy way to win trophies is to go to Real and win La Liga 2 out of every 3 years. The whole Cuper side show was garbage, Ronaldo just wanted Real and that's that. Now compare him to Sheva and Milan. Milan have struggled in Serie A and europe since he arrived in '99. But he never once thought about leaving Milan. He said constantly that he would never leave Milan and will do his best to lead Milan to success. Well, he has done that the last 2 years.

[Bauser]

TEAM B:

Members: Bauser (c), Auriaprottu, Papa Bouba Diop

Round: 6 (Week 6)
Selection: 4
Total picks: 29

Player: PAUL BREITNER

Position: Left or right back / central midfield

Career Span: 1970-83
Nationality: German
Born: 5th September 1951
Caps/goals: 48 / 11
Clubs: Bayern Munich (1970-74), Real Madrid (1974-77), Bayern Munich (1978-83)

Profile / Stats: [National team level]: World Cup winner 1974, European Championship winner 1972. [Club level]: Champions Cup winner 1974, 5 x Bundesliga winner, 2 x German Cup winner, 2 x Spanish Primera Liga winner, 1 x Spanish Cup winner.

Paul Breitner was a very versatile player who contributed a great deal to the success German football experienced in the 1970s at club and national team level. He was definitely one of the great personalities in the game of his generation. He started his career as defender, but unlike most other stars going into the twilight phase of their careers, Paul moved upfield in the latter stages where he could use his offensive skills more efficiently. Very skillful, calm and mentally strong with a powerful shot. Cold as ice. He was asked once: What do you feel when the national anthem is played for you? He answered: "Absolutely nothing. The whole ceremony is just annoying for my preparations before the match". He retired on top of his game before his 32nd birthday. A World XI was compiled for his farewell match which should say something about his position in the game.

TEAM SO FAR: Maradona (M/F), Passarella (CD), G.Müller (F), Van Basten (F), Deschamps (DM), Breitner (L&RB/CM).

[Ombak]

And I would definately advise you not to stake your life on Ronaldo in one game, because if you do you are as good as dead. Ronaldo is very weak psychologically, just look at the WC '98 Final...

Yeah, that's a fair assessment of a uy who was pumped ull of painkillers to the point of having a seizure and being sent to the hospital. Come on, what do you expect from someone in that situation? The best game of their life? He should never have been on the field.

[tpmazembe]

Sheva gets less recognition because he plays for Ukraine which might never make it to a major championship. And I would definately advise you not to stake your life on Ronaldo in one game, because if you do you are as good as dead. Ronaldo is very weak psychologically, just look at the WC '98 Final and the final day of the Serie A in 2002.Let’s deconstruct past and present.

Past. I don't follow media to make my conclusions, so having seen both IMO Ronaldo's career to date trumps Sheva's in numerous aspects. Not the least is their goals per game in Serie A:

Ronaldo - .72 (includes his injury years)
Schevy - .57
Schevy removing his poorest year - .65 goals/game
http://www.soccer-europe.com/Profiles/Shevchenko.html (http://www.soccer-europe.com/Profiles/Shevchenko.html)

That is a direct comparison.

Plus, I could argue that Inter has not had the cohesive midfield play that AC has over the past half-decade. So for the past, its Ronaldo’s play that has overshadowed Schevy, not his nationality.

If he was trully a world great he would have found a way to lift Inter to Lo Scudetto.
He was one un-called penalty against Juve away from doing that...

How far has Vieiri brought them?

Is Scheva the reason AC are going to win this season….he’s a contributor but not carrying them the way Ronaldo carried Inter that year.

And I would definately advise you not to stake your life on Ronaldo in one game, because if you do you are as good as dead. Ronaldo is very weak psychologically, just look at the WC '98 Final and the final day of the Serie A in 2002.

Present. Your right, let’s make it my net-worth since its minimal :)

You mention WC’98 but ignore the WC’02 final? Whatever happened in ’98 is over now, he buried that in ’02. The Final day of Serie A in ’02 he was 10 games back from a 2 year injury layoff (most of those games he didn’t play the full 90)!!! He more than overcame that by coming through in the stretch last year for Real when the pressure was just as strong.

None of the other strikers you named have proven themselves more capable of doing it under pressure.

Raul and Spain? Vieri and open sitters against S.Korea, or on that same last day of Serie A ‘02 you mentioned? Shevy in last year’s CL Final scored the last PK, but looked rather pedestrian the rest of the match -- frankly, he’s the least tested under severe pressure because he hasn’t been involved in many winner take all situations.

This is a personal preference, but I’ll take Ronaldo in that situation.

[tpmazembe]

The Ronaldo of 95-98 was one of the most devastating players I have seen. I am impressed with how he has changed his game post injury and his successes with Brazil are impressive. He still scores plenty of goals with Real Madrid but he isn't the player he once was and I wouldn't currently rate him one of the world's 4-5 best strikers. Actually I still wish Madrid had Fernando Morientes who I think is a more complete player. Better touch, better passer, more of a team player, much better header and as he has shown this year, and before Ronaldo arrived at Real Madrid, a deadly finisher as well.

If Ronaldo has a successful World Cup in 2006 and can help Real Madrid win a Champions League title he will go down as one of the game's greatest strikers but my point is he isn't the player now he was pre-injury and currently I'd rate Henry, Van Nistelrooy, Shevchenko, Vieri and Morientes as better players.Ronaldo suffers from being the only player in the world to constantly be compared to himself pre-injury. Every argument begins with the same caveat.

If you compared Sheva, Vieri, Van or anyone else today with that Fenom pre-injury they would be a class below in comparison.

Take him for what he is today and you see that he is an amazing goal scorer. He scores more goals taking on men from 15-20 meters out than anyone maybe other than T.Henry. He scores more in fewer attempts than any lead striker.

Merengue, respect your knowledge, but Morientes, despite having been a valuable piece to Real and doing well in the CL this year is not in his class today…no way. Better touch? Not one team manager in the world would pick Morientes to lead his forward line over Ronaldo. Plus, check out the Madrid boards and you will see that the overwhelming sentiment is that in crunch time last season, down the stretch, he delivered the Liga championship with clutch displays one after the other.

[tpmazembe]

I would take Henry, Raul, Sheva, and Van Nistlerooy right now over Ronaldo. .
IMO all of these guys can lay claim to being the current world’s best striker – along with Ronaldo -- other than Raul. You forgot to mention Makaay as a premier goal getter as well.

Raul and Ronaldo play on the same team and have been observed over the last year and half by all. Ronaldo has proven to be a better player, and more decisive in that stretch...even Madrid fanatics have to admit that. One can argue that Raul is not a pure goal getter, fine, but we are arguing the merits of Ronaldo being the No.9 on our dream team.

Van is extremely efficient, but infrequently scores away from the box, and needs a constant level of supply. Plus the world has seen many no.9's of his type.

Henry is spectacular, but has not come through in winner take all situations. However, he has the most upside of the ones mentioned.

Sheva is outstanding as well, and I generally don’t have reservations about him, but he is not a class above Ronaldo (who has faced more tests in the same career span).

When you consider that Ronaldo is just 1.75 years back into playing competitive football, is at 80% of his natural abilities post injury, and is still not optimum physical conditions (overweight) – yet he’s still in the same class as these guys….please, he easily merits to be leading our line.

PS - Henry aside, I bet he outperforms all the rest for the remainder of their careers.

[tpmazembe]

TEAM B:

Members: Bauser (c), Auriaprottu, Papa Bouba Diop

Round: 6 (Week 6)
Selection: 4
Total picks: 29

Player: PAUL BREITNER

Position: Left or right back / central midfieldTEAM SO FAR: Maradona (M/F), Passarella (CD), G.Müller (F), Van Basten (F), Deschamps (DM), Breitner (L&RB/CM).
One of the obvious choices for left back and provides versatility for the midfield. Loved him as the midfield engine early '80s Bayern.

Did you know that he is only 1 of 3 people to have scored in two WC finals games? Came you name the other two?