Draft of Drafts

[Real Ray]

TEAM D – Have obviously gone for defense first, with 3 picks out of the first 4 in the backline. An interesting philosophical choice, and one that would serve you well most days for long league play; but, in a shorter length tournament of 10 games, against the greatest offensive players of all-time……..


Nah...our manager-
http://www.sevillacf.com/imagenes/entrenadores/HelenioHerrera.jpg
Señor Herrera, has relayed the follwing message:
"No pasarán!"

:p

[Excape Goat]

There is absolutely no wa you can call any team 'the strongest' until at least 8or9picks have been made. Each team has its own problems to make up for at this moment in time and it has those pieces are sorted that'll define things in due time.

The comment was meant for this moment.

[argentine soccer fan]

I also agreed that Team A is the strongest.... you forgot to mention that Moore stayed back to anchor the defense.

Dark Savant is right. Obviously it is too early to give judgement. But I will do it anyway just for fun. I think our team is the strongest so far and also the one capable of playing the most attractive soccer. I guess we got a bit of an advantage from picking first, so hopefully we won't screw it up later.

C and E are coming along nicely, but team D (Helenio Herrera's team) worries me the most so far, because they are building a great defense. I think there are still some great defenders available, so we shall see.

I am a bit confused with team B's strategy. They appear to be going for the best player available, rather than building a team. I would have picked Muller or Van Basten, but I would not have picked both. I have some ideas on how to best compliment Maradona, but hey, its not my team. We have the enviable task of figuring out how to build a team around Pele.

[comme]

Personally of the other teams, my favourite is Team D. All 4 players they have picked so far would start on my all time 11. All the other teams have 1 each and my team has 2.

Despite having Pele and Maradona I least like teams A and B, but that is just my personal feeling on their players, and it is still early days.

[argentine soccer fan]

Team A
Ombak, Skipshady, Motterman, argentine soccer fan
Round 5 (week 5)
Selection 1
21st overall pick

Player: Franklin Edmundo 'Frank' Rijkaard
Born: 30/09/1962, Amsterdam, Holland
Position: Defensive Midfielder
Career Span: 1980-1995
Nationality: Holland

Club Teams:
Ajax Amsterdam: 261 matches, 65 goals
Real Zaragoza: 11 matches
AC Milan: 168 matches, 16 goals

National Team: 73 caps (including 1990 and 1994 World Cups, 1988 European Championships), 10 goals

Career Highlights:
5 Dutch Championships
3 Dutch Cups
2 Serie A Championships
1 Cup Winners Cup
3 European Cups
3 European Super Cups
3 Intercontinental Cups
1 European Championship
Dutch player of the year award
Medal of Merits for Holland (gifted to him by Queen Beatrix)

Frank Rijkaard is considered one of the best defensive midfielders in history. He could play any midfield position. He began his career with Ajax, winning three titles between 1980 and 1988. He made his international debut in 1981, against Switzerland.

In 1988 he was a key member of the Holland team that won the European Championship. After a brief and forgettable stint with Real Zaragoza he was transferred to AC Milan. I will now quote excerpts from an ACMilan fan site:

'Sacci rescued Frank Rijkaard from his Spanish hell shortly after he helped Holland lift the 1988 European Cup. With his arrival the jigsaw puzzle was complete.-Gullit provided the flair, Van Basten the goals, and Rijkaard the steel. For the next two seasons Milan would sweep all before them in Europe and beyond, winning two successive European cups, European Super Cups and Intercontinental Cups. Rijkaard scored the winning goal against Benfica in the 1990 European Cup final.

Glory would turn to shame just one month later as the Dutch, heavy favourites for the 1990 World Cup, crashed out in the second round against archrivals Germany. Rijkaard, the model professional, earned himself a red card for spitting at Rudi Voller.

Rijkaard was outstanding in Milan 1992 championship success and even more so the following season, holding the team together as confidence hit rock bottom with the loss to injury of Van Basten and continued problems with Gullit. Rijkaard left for Ajax after Milan's European Cup final defeat against Marseille despite desperate attempts by the club to keep him at the San Siro.'

Rijkaard went on to win two more titles with Ajax, and in a storybook ending to his career, scored the winning goal against his former AC Milan teammates to win the 1995 European Cup.

Rijkaard was the archetypal modern day midfielder. An outstanding defensive midfielder who had a telepathic understanding with Van Basten. A tremendous big match player, a legend in Italy and Holland. Considered the third best Dutch player after Cruijff and Van Basten. One of the most consistently brilliant midfielders of our time and arguably an all-time great.

Our selection: Unanimous

Our team so far: Moore, Rijkaard, Didi, Pele, Eusebio

[argentine soccer fan]

If my recollection is correct, there is one item in the excerpt that I quoted that is not strictly accurate. In the 1990 WC incident, Rijkaard was not ejected for spitting at Voller. As I remember it, he spat at Voller after they both had been ejected.

Either way, the fact remains that for millions of fans around the world, the image of Rijkaard that will forever be remember is of that shameful incident. Yet those who followed his career in Holland and Italy agree that it was completely out of character for a player who was considered a class act by teammates and opponents.

If somebody knows more about the incident, whether there was a history with Rijkaard and Voller, or what happened during the match, whatever can shed more light into it, I hope you will share it here.

Regardless of that, I am delighted that Rijkaard is on our team. I think he will provide the 'steel' that we needed, just as he did for ACMilan.

[Dark Savante]

Team A
Ombak, Skipshady, Motterman, argentine soccer fan
Round 5 (week 5)
Selection 1
21st overall pick

Player: Franklin Edmundo 'Frank' Rijkaard
Born: 30/09/1962, Amsterdam, Holland
Position: Defensive Midfielder
Career Span: 1980-1995
Nationality: Holland

Club Teams:
Ajax Amsterdam: 261 matches, 65 goals
Real Zaragoza: 11 matches
AC Milan: 168 matches, 16 goals

National Team: 73 caps (including 1990 and 1994 World Cups, 1988 European Championships), 10 goals

Career Highlights:
5 Dutch Championships
3 Dutch Cups
2 Serie A Championships
1 Cup Winners Cup
3 European Cups
3 European Super Cups
3 Intercontinental Cups
1 European Championship
Dutch player of the year award
Medal of Merits for Holland (gifted to him by Queen Beatrix)

Frank Rijkaard is considered one of the best defensive midfielders in history. He could play any midfield position. He began his career with Ajax, winning three titles between 1980 and 1988. He made his international debut in 1981, against Switzerland.

In 1988 he was a key member of the Holland team that won the European Championship. After a brief and forgettable stint with Real Zaragoza he was transferred to AC Milan. I will now quote excerpts from an ACMilan fan site:



Rijkaard went on to win two more titles with Ajax, and in a storybook ending to his career, scored the winning goal against his former AC Milan teammates to win the 1995 European Cup.

Rijkaard was the archetypal modern day midfielder. An outstanding defensive midfielder who had a telepathic understanding with Van Basten. A tremendous big match player, a legend in Italy and Holland. Considered the third best Dutch player after Cruijff and Van Basten. One of the most consistently brilliant midfielders of our time and arguably an all-time great.

Our selection: Unanimous

Our team so far: Moore, Rijkaard, Didi, Pele, Eusebio

About time your team got some defensive pace. Nice choice. Curious to see whether you'll play him at the back or next to Didi.

[argentine soccer fan]

About time your team got some defensive pace. Nice choice. Curious to see whether you'll play him at the back or next to Didi.

We are still debating that. One of the great things about Rijkaard is his versatility. We'll have to see who else is available to us before making that determination.

[Twenty26Six]

TEAM A : Pele, Moore, Eusebio, Didi
TEAM B : Maradona, Passarella, G.Muller, VanBasten
TEAM C : DiStefano, Garrincha, Platini, Fachetti
TEAM D : Cryuff, Baresi, Dj.Santos, Maldini
TEAM E : Beckenbauer, Puskas, Best, Zidane


Team A is very solid and were my early favorites. Pele, Moore, Didi all have tons of character/leadership and have proven that they can co-exist in the same squad. The pick of Frank Rijkaard was a bit strange in my eyes. You already had loads of strength up the center and I don't think you need to play Rijkaard as a CDM. You could always play him at the back with Moore, but I'm not sure I'd have as much confidence in that backline tandem. I would have gone with a creative winger to alleviate some of the burden on Pele/Eusebio, unless you plan on playing one of them wide. Overall, I like what Frank brings. I am just not so sure you needed to take him here and now with this pick.

Team B looks to have the strongest front 3 available. All three of these guys can play up front and center. It'd be hard for any team to contain this "deadly triad" of speed, skill, precision. For my money, Van Basten/Muller are clinical finishers in every sense of the word. Maradona backing them makes me speechless. Passarella is great, but he will need help. The big question is if this team can get some width as well as find a good holding midfielder who will do the donkey work.

Team C may be the team I am least knowledgable of. However, I have been very impressed by the historical knowledge presented on guys like Di Stefano. In my eyes you guys have filled many "specialty" positions. Right now this team may not seem the most daunting. But, it may be after 4/5 picks, the most "complete".

Team D has a great defensive unit. I don't know if anyone can match this corps. I smell a 3-5-2 with Cruyff playing in a free role behind the strikers. Get the right wingers and these guys will be the best "team", and not just the best players. That is if Cruyff shows up for the games. Can he co-exist with Maldini/Baresi?

Team E looks most versatile. I don't know if the guys from Team E share the same vision of this squad as I do. I'd play Best and Puskas as out-n-out wingers. Zidane as the CM playmaker and Beckenbauer as the DM lynchpin. That to me is about as good a midfield as you get, all-time. I would take that four man combo overy almost any other possible one. Will they play it like that? With Becks in defense and Best/Puskas up top, I think you need a holding midfielder. Hmmm, I bet you could find a late round active player to fit very nicely here. I can think of at least 4 that would fit very nicely. = /

-----

With my team reviews so far out of the way. I'd like to drop three more cents.

One. I think Gunners whole argument over time periods was misconstrued. I think the whole initial point [and very good one at that] was that Zidane would fair better and be more dominant in an older time period. I agree. I don't think it was meant to say Pele or anyone could not cut it in this era. I just tend to agree with the "evolution theory" of human athletics. While there are certainly great players from the last twenty-five years... are there as many totally dominant players as were between '55 and '80? I think that speaks a lot for the vast improvement of the average and below average professional.

Two. In my honest opinion, Ronaldo is the most "explosive" striker that has ever played. I don't think there has been anyone as equally gifted athletically and skillfully as him. He would have been absolutely devastating in a way that no one in previous eras could have compared to. His potential did not pan out as high as hoped. But, he is still very prolific.

Three. I think that all teams should be allowed to play any formation possible. This is a great idea and a great history lesson. It'd be a shame to see such a creative forum confined by such a mundane formation in the 4-4-2. I want to see what people will come up with strategically and tactically in their placements. Plus, you have to consider that a lot of these guys never played in "standard" formations. You need only to look at the most recent tactical analysis of J/K '02 to see that the 4-4-2 is more a figment of the public's imagination, rather than a default/common formation. Let's loosen up the strings people. Let's have some fun with this.

Keep up the good banter. This is fun to read. = )

[Excape Goat]

Dark Savant is right. Obviously it is too early to give judgement. But I will do it anyway just for fun. I think our team is the strongest so far and also the one capable of playing the most attractive soccer. I guess we got a bit of an advantage from picking first, so hopefully we won't screw it up later.



I feel that team A is the strongest at this given moment because your team seemed to be picking the best players avaible plus building around them.... it is a team not built by stardom only.

I also liked Team D.... they built a solid defense. With Cruyff in front, they can fill in with lesser players around him later and they will still have the same offensive power. Having said that, this defense unit will have hard time stopping Pele and Eusebio.

[Bauser]

TEAM B:

Active team members: Bauser (c), Auriaprottu, Papa Bouba Diop

Round: 5 (Week 5)
Selection: 2
Total: 22

Player: DIDIER DESCHAMPS

Position: Defensive midfielder

Career Span: 1985-2001
Nationality: French
Born: 15th October 1968
Caps/goals: 103 / 4
Clubs: Nantes (1985-90), Marseille (1990), Bordeaux (1990-91), Marseille (1991-94), Juventus (1994-99), Chelsea (1999-00), Valencia (2000-01).

Profile / Stats: [National team level]: World Cup winner 1998, European Championship winner 2000. [Club level]: Champions League winner 1993 and 1996. Intercontinental Cup winner 1996, European Super Cup winner 1996, French league champion 3 times, Italian league champion 3 times, Italian cup winner 1 time, English FA Cup winner 1 time.

Didier Deschamps gets the most defensive position in the center of our midfield. Often an unsong hero he has been a major factor for success in some of the most successful teams in the modern game. First at Marseille and then at Juventus plus the French national team in the same timeframe. More glamorous names in these teams were allowed to shine much thanks to Deschamps' ability to cover up and do the dirty work for the creative forces up front. His ballwinning skills and ability to feed his attacking midfielders with the right balls at the right time always made him a very efficient player. His leadership qualities earned him the captaincy for France.

TEAM SO FAR: Maradona (M/F), Passarella (CD), G.Müller (F), Van Basten (F), Deschamps (DM).

[tpmazembe]

Work has got me short on time, but....

Team A...I swear you guys are in our deliberation room, Eusebio, Moore, now Rijkaard. I've posted on my feelings about the era of the D-mid. He is one of the exceptions that played that position with skill, the prototype if you will. Argument could be made that he was the best of the three Dutchmen at Milan.

Team B...You guys went with D-mid as well, good complement, especially strong on the leadership factor. Wasn't Cantona who called him the "piano carrier" or "waiter", or some other derogatory reference?....history rewarded the worker more than the loudmouth. I'm surprised though that you chose him over some others -- probably went for as much steel as possible.

Welcome kold_77_krush. Good articulation of your viewpoint. Don't underestimate team C, we've got a masterplan (I hope)! Any relation to the coldcrush four?!?

[comme]

Deschamps was caled the "water carrier" by Cantona. The piano carrier was Doriva (giving a hint away there, someone might snap him up).

Anyway, I liked deschamps but i'm not sure he is a top 22 of all time player.D-mid is actually a very deep position.

As for Rijkaard being the best of milan's three Dutch players, he was very good, a real contender for my all time team, but you could equally make the case that he was the worst.

As for our formation, we will be playing Puskas as an out and out striker I'm sure.

[Twenty26Six]

Not that I am a particularly big fan of the coldcrush four, but that is where the screenname comes from. Bonus points to you for being the first to point that out.

I always hear you talking [in this thread] about old tapes available for matches. Where can I find these?

[argentine soccer fan]

[font=Times New Roman]
[b]Three. I think that all teams should be allowed to play any formation possible. This is a great idea and a great history lesson. It'd be a shame to see such a creative forum confined by such a mundane formation in the 4-4-2. I want to see what people will come up with strategically and tactically in their placements. Plus, you have to consider that a lot of these guys never played in "standard" formations. You need only to look at the most recent tactical analysis of J/K '02 to see that the 4-4-2 is more a figment of the public's imagination, rather than a default/common formation. Let's loosen up the strings people. Let's have some fun with this.



I like this idea, because it would create more interesting debate, which is what this game is all about. But would it be fair to change the rules halfway through the game? It was tpmazembe's rule that we must have a line of four, so maybe he can comment further about this issue. Or, we could have the team captains vote on it.

krush, I enjoyed your post, but I dissagree with your point about Rijkaard. I think he is perfect for our team. He is a very versatile player who can play anywhere in midfield and as a central defender. He is a great talent, a proven winner and a great team player. And aside from all that, I think he fills a glaring need that our team had for defensive toughness. And he'll stand up for his teammates, too. So, whoever messes with Pele better be ready to mess with Rijkaard.

The same is true of Deschamp for team B. He is a player that we didn't consider, but I think it's a great pick. Especially for that particular team, because Maradona needs a player like him to protect him and complement him by doing the dirty work in midfield.

PS: Play Pele wide? The Brazilian media would crucify us, and they'd be right. :D

[GunnersBT]

One. I think Gunners whole argument over time periods was misconstrued. I think the whole initial point [and very good one at that] was that Zidane would fair better and be more dominant in an older time period. I agree. I don't think it was meant to say Pele or anyone could not cut it in this era. I just tend to agree with the "evolution theory" of human athletics. While there are certainly great players from the last twenty-five years... are there as many totally dominant players as were between '55 and '80? I think that speaks a lot for the vast improvement of the average and below average professional.


Exactly correct. Any other point I made was just surplusage.

[Spartak]

OK, the gloves are coming off ;)

Team B: Deschamps has to be the worst pick so far in our draft. He was never considered the best at his position and was known for his leadership qualities more than his skill. He, imo, was one of the most overrrated players while he was playing and I can think of 20-30 better defensive midfielders whom I would pick over Didier. He simply doesn't belong in our list.

[tpmazembe]

OK, the gloves are coming off ;)

Team B: Deschamps has to be the worst pick so far in our draft. He was never considered the best at his position and was known for his leadership qualities more than his skill. He, imo, was one of the most overrrated players while he was playing and I can think of 20-30 better defensive midfielders whom I would pick over Didier. He simply doesn't belong in our list.
Damn....tell us how you really feel.

Is it because he was Juve and not Milan?

[Bauser]

Team B: Deschamps has to be the worst pick so far in our draft. He was never considered the best at his position and was known for his leadership qualities more than his skill. He, imo, was one of the most overrrated players while he was playing and I can think of 20-30 better defensive midfielders whom I would pick over Didier. He simply doesn't belong in our list.
Bulls***. Deschamps was class through and through. A superb player to balance up the midfield with. He didn't steal the headlines in the morning papers, but was always an achiever who kept on working. He had a long and distinguished career playing at the very top of the international game for many years even if he didn't score the spectacular goals treasured by TV-viewers. We have other players in our team for that.

[Spartak]

Damn....tell us how you really feel.

Is it because he was Juve and not Milan?
Nope, there are many Juve players that I respect as supreme players. Deschamps is not one of them. I've probably seen Deschamps play more, or at least equal to, anybody in this draft. He never impressed me. He wasn't even the best Juve player at the DM position in the last 10-15 years. I can also think of 2 French DM off the top of my head who were clearly better than Deschamps in the same period.