Draft of Drafts

[argentine soccer fan]

I agree that it's a blot on his resume. However, on his day, Van Basten was as good as anyone. He just wasn't as consistent as the strikers who have already been chosen. There were 1 or 2 other "#9's" that haven't yet been chosen that I might have taken ahead of Van Basten, but it's very close. He was slowed by injuries as much as anything. Add him to the 1994 Dutch World Cup team and we might not be talking about (1) the 1994 Brazilian squad as one of the best-ever national sides or (2) the Dutch Nats as underachievers....

The modern players have the advantage that we all get a chance to see them more in league play. Based on his WC play I would never pick VanBasten, but having watched him play so impressively and scored such great goals for Milan against the best players of his era I see him as one of the great ones in spite of his lack of success at the WC stage.

[argentine soccer fan]

Firstly tp, the point I make about Puskas is that he came into that team where Di Stefano was the boss, yet he was humble enough to not act the star, and Di Stefano took to him. So did other superstars that I won't metion yet.

As for Pele and Didi, when Pele arrived on the Brazil team he was a boy, we are now talking about Pele the best player ever, how would Didi react to such a player?


I never had a chance to watch the Real of DiStefano, Didi and Puskas, so I am speaking theoretically based on second hand information. But it seems to me that you cannot compare the situation of Didi with that of Puskas.

Leaving aside the possible racial tension, which I don't know enough to comment on, it seems to me that having Didi and DiStefano together would be like having two drivers for one steering wheel. I can see how their roles would overlap. Puskas is different because I think he would complement DiStefano rather than challenge his leadership role.

I don't imagine Pele and Didi having conflict. As I said before, Brazilians always seem to play better when they play together. Look at Brazil 70's and the way Pele at the top of his game played with Gerson and the other talented midfielders from that team. Didi can take on a leadership role similar to Gerson, and I think he was a superior talent compared to Gerson and would bring much more to the team.

Or, going back to 58, Garrincha was an incredible but undisciplined talent and yet Didi by all accounts got the most from him. Didi was the motivator and leader of that team on and off the field. If I remember correctly he was the one who spoke up in challenge to the coaching staff and demanded the inclusion of Garrincha and Pele in the starting lineup.

[GunnersBT]

Firstly tp, the point I make about Puskas is that he came into that team where Di Stefano was the boss, yet he was humble enough to not act the star, and Di Stefano took to him. So did other superstars that I won't metion yet.

As for Pele and Didi, when Pele arrived on the Brazil team he was a boy, we are now talking about Pele the best player ever, how would Didi react to such a player?

GunnersBT, firstly i don't think anyone seriously talks about Brazil 94 as a truly great team. They had one great player, other than that they were predominantly workmanlike.

Secondly, the Dutch side of 92 was better than that of 94 and they still didn't win the championship. So even if van Basten had lined up, who knows what would have happened.


Name 2 national sides in the last 20 years that were better......

[CG]

Team Re-cap after 4th Round:

TEAM A : Pele, Moore, Eusebio, Didi
TEAM B : Maradona, Passarella, G.Muller, VanBasten
TEAM C : DiStefano, Garrincha, Platini, Fachetti
TEAM D : Cryuff, Baresi, Dj.Santos, Maldini
TEAM E : Beckenbauer, Puskas, Best, Zidane
I like Team E the best. Skill out the wazoo!

[TORPEDO]

Gentlemen ( IMHO ) you're not going far back enough , especially in the 2nd or 3rd round.
No goalie ??????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[comme]

Name 2 national sides in the last 20 years that were better......

Better in what way?

France 84, Brazil 82-86, Holland 88, W Germany 90, Italy 90, France 98-today, Brazil 02-today can all claim to be superior to that Brazil team.

All those teams have superior players and were imo better.

Brazil 94 only beat one good team on their way to win the tournament; Holland.

Cameroon were poor (a shadow of the 90 team), Russia were poor, Sweden who they played twice were average, USA were poor but had hom advantage. Holland were good and they drew with Italy. They were a good hard working team but lacked the spark to be a great team.

[Ombak]

Better in what way?

France 84, Brazil 82-86, Holland 88, W Germany 90, Italy 90, France 98-today, Brazil 02-today can all claim to be superior to that Brazil team.

All those teams have superior players and were imo better.

Brazil 94 only beat one good team on their way to win the tournament; Holland.

Cameroon were poor (a shadow of the 90 team), Russia were poor, Sweden who they played twice were average, USA were poor but had hom advantage. Holland were good and they drew with Italy. They were a good hard working team but lacked the spark to be a great team.

They had that spark in 93 during the second half of the qualifiers. Even without their World Cup star they steam-rolled through there last 4 games. Their creative midfielder and right-back were in brilliant form then and it wasn't till May 1994 that that creative seemed to disappear. They had more than one great player.

[argentine soccer fan]

Better in what way?

France 84, Brazil 82-86, Holland 88, W Germany 90, Italy 90, France 98-today, Brazil 02-today can all claim to be superior to that Brazil team.

All those teams have superior players and were imo better.

Brazil 94 only beat one good team on their way to win the tournament; Holland.


I would not say all those teams were superior. It is difficult to rank Brazil 94. They had a lot of talent. They had two great scorers in Romario and Bebeto. They also had strong defensive leadership in players like Dunga and Mauro Silva. A nice group of lateral defenders who could attack as well as defend. (Jorginho, Cafu, Leonardo, Branco). If a European team like England won the WC with that type of talent they'd be talking about how great they were, but people expect more from Brazil.

On the negative side, Taffarel was decent but not a top WC goalkeeper. But that is normal for Brazil. The real problem is that they did not have a good creative midfielder. Rai was MIA, and neither Zinho nor Mazinho were able to take over.

Perhaps Parreira's system inhibited the play of the midfielders, or perhaps their inconsistent play made Parreira look bad. That can be debated. But Brazil did not have what they always seem to have, which is strong and attractive play in midfield.

In balance, I think that Brazil was a deserving champion, but they were not among the best Brazilian teams of all time.

[TORPEDO]

I would not say all those teams were superior. It is difficult to rank Brazil 94. They had a lot of talent. They had two great scorers in Romario and Bebeto. They also had strong defensive leadership in players like Dunga and Mauro Silva. A nice group of lateral defenders who could attack as well as defend. (Jorginho, Cafu, Leonardo, Branco). If a European team like England won the WC with that type of talent they'd be talking about how great they were, but people expect more from Brazil.

On the negative side, Taffarel was decent but not a top WC goalkeeper. But that is normal for Brazil. The real problem is that they did not have a good creative midfielder. Rai was MIA, and neither Zinho nor Mazinho were able to take over.

Perhaps Parreira's system inhibited the play of the midfielders, or perhaps their inconsistent play made Parreira look bad. That can be debated. But Brazil did not have what they always seem to have, which is strong and attractive play in midfield.

In balance, I think that Brazil was a deserving champion, but they were not among the best Brazilian teams of all time.

Parreira wanted the cup so badly , he didn't want to risk an inch.
IMHO - Taffarel had a great tournament.

[argentine soccer fan]

Parreira wanted the cup so badly , he didn't want to risk an inch.
IMHO - Taffarel had a great tournament.

Well, you are right about that. I think Taffarel was a decent goalkeeper who certainly stepped it up a knotch at the WC (both in 94 and 98). He did have a great tournament in 94, and obviously was the hero of the final. But I wouldn't rank him as one of the best goalkeepers of his era.

I think a trully a great goalkeeper has to always transmit security, make all the rutine saves plus some unbelievable ones, and also be the master and commander of the penalty area. He has to be an intimidating figure to opposing strikers. I don't think Taffarel was all that.

So, when I judge Brazil 94, I don't consider goalkeeping one of their strengths. But considering Taffarel performance perhaps you are right that I was too harsh in calling it a negative.

Well, we shall see if somebody picks Taffarel for their team.

[TORPEDO]

No way , he was allright , not more than that , and there probably have been 10-12 larger than life goalies.

[GunnersBT]

I agree with just about all that has been posted about Brazil's 1994 team. Two great forwards, 2 very good holding mids, and a very good right-back. Most importantly, there weren't really any major weaknesses in that team. Taffarel is one of the better Brazilian goalkeepers. Aldair and Marcio Santos were very solid in the middle. Also, Rai, Branco, Zinho, and Paulo Sergio were all in very good form at that time, although none of them went on to have spectacular careers. (In fairness, Zinho has always been a very good player in Brazil. He just hasn't gotten much recognition b/c he never was very successful in Europe. Rai was probably the biggest disappointment following WC 1994.)

[tpmazembe]

it seems to me that having Didi and DiStefano together would be like having two drivers for one steering wheel. I can see how their roles would overlap. Puskas is different because I think he would complement DiStefano rather than challenge his leadership role. comme, your posts (at least from my vantage point) presume that Didi was the somehow unable, or unwilling, to co-exist with someone as talented, or more talented, than him. From my perspective he faced the daunting scenario of coming upon an undisputed (deservingly so) team icon unwilling to have him as contributing member…a very different situation altogether.

Didi was more than accustomed to playing with great players. Whether it be Garrincha and Nilton Santos at Botafogo, to the constellation of players with the Selecao, he was always noted to bring the best out of his teammates

When I can I’ll review my Didi biography, but I do remember reading Distefano greeting him with words to the effect of “your too old and too slow to replace me.” Thus, if his arrival was perceived as some kind of potential succession planning -- given the similiarity in their roles as leaders of teams and as the dictators of a team's rhythm (as raised by argentine football fan) -- its not farfetched to imagine potential conflict. From then on, from Didi's perspective, it was a series of incidents to undermine his stay.

My point is that under such circumstance few players, no matter how great, would flourish – especially when at the time few Brasilians played abroad, and fewer black Brasilians. After having already felt rejection when his childhood dream of playing for Fluminense was shattered due to Fluminense racial policies (a snub that hurt him deeply his whole life), one can imagine what his reaction may have been upon receiving that less than inviting welcome to Madrid, and looking around to see nobody to relate too. Must of made for lonely and unhappy days.

These disagreements amongst men have occurred through time and in every facet of life whether corporate or sport. In football, it is said Maradona’s dislike for Passarella kept him off the Argentine 1986 squad, though he was more than deserving as a player. Ditto for Netzer’s reduced participation in WC 1974, when Beckenbauer supposedly kept him from seeing significant playing time. In USA basketball, there is no doubt in anyone’s mind that Isiah Thomas was left of the one true Dream Team because Michel Jordan loathed him…Isiah at the time was probably the 4th or 5th best player in the world. I’m sure if Raul had wanted to scuttle Ronaldo’s arrival in Madrid, no amount of talent would have allowed for O Fenomeno / El Gordo to shine.

From a personal perspective I respect Didi’s game to no end, and to me is clearly one of the top 5 true midfield generals of all-time. As ASF points out, it is hard to have two players driving the bus, and Distefano and Didi would not have made sense for our team.

Finally, on a personal note, I respect Didi as a man as well. Everyone associated with him speaks of elegance and character. The moment Ombak speaks of, when he carries the ball to the center circle, head held up high, after Sweden scored the first goal during the Final of WC 1958 is the stuff of legend. It marks the exact moment when Brasil became a world footballing power….one that believed in itself. Remember, the backdrop was a nation that had let slip away a WC title at home in a demoralizing fashion; a moment sandwiched by Leonidas-less semi-final loss in France 1938 and famous Battle of Bern debacle in 1954 --- all with squads formed of great players. Its even more significant because at the time there was circulating a document in CBD circles that characterized blacks and mulattos as “liabilities” and "unreliable" under pressure situations.

In that moment he seemed to say, “follow me and I’ll get you there”. In fact, within 4 minutes he begins the action brings the equalizer and the offensive onslaught that was about to transpire. That is a great moment in football -- one often commented on in Brasilian football annals, and replayed time and again at the moment of his death a few years past.

As you probably can tell, I'm an unabashed fan of the Ethiopian Prince.

[Dark Savante]

comme, your posts (at least from my vantage point) presume that Didi was the somehow unable, or unwilling, to co-exist with someone as talented, or more talented, than him. From my perspective he faced the daunting scenario of coming upon an undisputed (deservingly so) team icon unwilling to have him as contributing member…a very different situation altogether.

Didi was more than accustomed to playing with great players. Whether it be Garrincha and Nilton Santos at Botafogo, to the constellation of players with the Selecao, he was always noted to bring the best out of his teammates

When I can I’ll review my Didi biography, but I do remember reading Distefano greeting him with words to the effect of “your too old and too slow to replace me.” Thus, if his arrival was perceived as some kind of potential succession planning -- given the similiarity in their roles as leaders of teams and as the dictators of a team's rhythm (as raised by argentine football fan) -- its not farfetched to imagine potential conflict. From then on, from Didi's perspective, it was a series of incidents to undermine his stay.

My point is that under such circumstance few players, no matter how great, would flourish – especially when at the time few Brasilians played abroad, and fewer black Brasilians. After having already felt rejection when his childhood dream of playing for Fluminense was shattered due to Fluminense racial policies (a snub that hurt him deeply his whole life), one can imagine what his reaction may have been upon receiving that less than inviting welcome to Madrid, and looking around to see nobody to relate too. Must of made for lonely and unhappy days.

These disagreements amongst men have occurred through time and in every facet of life whether corporate or sport. In football, it is said Maradona’s dislike for Passarella kept him off the Argentine 1986 squad, though he was more than deserving as a player. Ditto for Netzer’s reduced participation in WC 1974, when Beckenbauer supposedly kept him from seeing significant playing time. In USA basketball, there is no doubt in anyone’s mind that Isiah Thomas was left of the one true Dream Team because Michel Jordan loathed him…Isiah at the time was probably the 4th or 5th best player in the world. I’m sure if Raul had wanted to scuttle Ronaldo’s arrival in Madrid, no amount of talent would have allowed for O Fenomeno / El Gordo to shine.

From a personal perspective I respect Didi’s game to no end, and to me is clearly one of the top 5 true midfield generals of all-time. As ASF points out, it is hard to have two players driving the bus, and Distefano and Didi would not have made sense for our team.

Finally, on a personal note, I respect Didi as a man as well. Everyone associated with him speaks of elegance and character. The moment Ombak speaks of, when he carries the ball to the center circle, head held up high, after Sweden scored the first goal during the Final of WC 1958 is the stuff of legend. It marks the exact moment when Brasil became a world footballing power….one that believed in itself. Remember, the backdrop was a nation that had let slip away a WC title at home in a demoralizing fashion; a moment sandwiched by Leonidas-less semi-final loss in France 1938 and famous Battle of Bern debacle in 1954 --- all with squads formed of great players. Its even more significant because at the time there was circulating a document in CBD circles that characterized blacks and mulattos as “liabilities” and "unreliable" under pressure situations.

In that moment he seemed to say, “follow me and I’ll get you there”. In fact, within 4 minutes he begins the action brings the equalizer and the offensive onslaught that was about to transpire. That is a great moment in football -- one often commented on in Brasilian football annals, and replayed time and again at the moment of his death a few years past.

As you probably can tell, I'm an unabashed fan of the Ethiopian Prince.
Wow, excellent post. A most enjoyable read there. It will be interesting to read the rebuttal(s)

[tpmazembe]

I like Team E the best. Skill out the wazoo!Tell us why you give them the edge, pvan....all the teams are skillful.

TEAM A : Pele, Moore, Eusebio, Didi
TEAM B : Maradona, Passarella, G.Muller, VanBasten
TEAM C : DiStefano, Garrincha, Platini, Fachetti
TEAM D : Cryuff, Baresi, Dj.Santos, Maldini
TEAM E : Beckenbauer, Puskas, Best, Zidane

TEAM A – I fear them the most at this point. With Didi taking the lead to pull the strings, it allows Pele a free role to cause havoc up-front in support of Eusebio. The shear speed and athleticism of that duo is frightening. They are not going to miss many opportunities, and, they are both able to create their own.

TEAM B – I’m waiting to see how things develop with their picks. I feel that with two true No.9’s Maradona is forced to play provider for two guys who need a lot of supply…this may limit his forays to goal. I always felt his best position was more advanced, as a support striker. Who will be the support striker here, Gerd or Marco? Is there enough space in the penalty box for both of them?

TEAM D – Have obviously gone for defense first, with 3 picks out of the first 4 in the backline. An interesting philosophical choice, and one that would serve you well most days for long league play; but, in a shorter length tournament of 10 games, against the greatest offensive players of all-time……..

TEAM E - a balanced approach to date, but wondering if they are going to be short of fire power with Zidane contributing so little in terms of personal scoring (relative to the other offensive mids chosen) -- will he make up with a tons of assists?

Welcome to the discussion Torpedo.

[condor11]

agree on didi

he was a great man and leader
his contributions to peruvian futbol led to our best ever performance in a world cup in 1970
a team that he coached

btw he also played for my club sporting cristal

[comme]

Well tp, our opinions on Didi differ from our standpoint.

The reason I criticise him is in part from my reading of the biography of Puskas. In this the comparison is made between the two, the way they adapted to life in Madrid and to their team-mates.

Puskas as I outlined in my profile of him was considered washed up and finished, yet managed to re-scale the heights at Madrid. Perhaps this was why Di Stefano liked him, at first he wasn't seen as a threat.

The fact was that Puskas was able to fit in and Didi was not.

Whether it was due to racial prejudice or simply a clash of personalities through bad luck, his time at Madrid has to be a criticism of Didi.

As has often been explored before on these boards, greatness is as much due to luck as to ability. Didi was lucky to have played in the 1950s and 60s rather than the 30s and 40s. He was unluvky that he couldn't get on with the man that mattered at Real; Di Stefano.

[comme]

I agree with just about all that has been posted about Brazil's 1994 team. Two great forwards, 2 very good holding mids, and a very good right-back. Most importantly, there weren't really any major weaknesses in that team. Taffarel is one of the better Brazilian goalkeepers. Aldair and Marcio Santos were very solid in the middle. Also, Rai, Branco, Zinho, and Paulo Sergio were all in very good form at that time, although none of them went on to have spectacular careers. (In fairness, Zinho has always been a very good player in Brazil. He just hasn't gotten much recognition b/c he never was very successful in Europe. Rai was probably the biggest disappointment following WC 1994.)


They were nothing special though. They only have one player (as a starter) who i believe will play any part in this draft. The rest were god but not great players.

[Excape Goat]

TEAM E - a balanced approach to date, but wondering if they are going to be short of fire power with Zidane contributing so little in terms of personal scoring (relative to the other offensive mids chosen) -- will he make up with a tons of assists? [/size][/font]

Welcome to the discussion Torpedo.

We got Puskus and Best who can score. We only needed someone to support them. Plus, we have not finished yet.

I also agreed that Team A is the strongest.... you forgot to mention that Moore stayed back to anchor the defense.

[Dark Savante]

I also agreed that Team A is the strongest.... you forgot to mention that Moore stayed back to anchor the defense.

There is absolutely no wa you can call any team 'the strongest' until at least 8or9picks have been made. Each team has its own problems to make up for at this moment in time and it has those pieces are sorted that'll define things in due time.