The F.A Cup[R]

[Dark Savante]

I can't believe how much lustre the competition has lost over the last few years.

Today felt like a glorified Carling Cup game with how we approached it and Fergie's selections, although obviously good enough to get us to pennos, did not show the same 'seriousness' as he reserves for the PL and CL.

Nope, this isn't sour grapes. I hope Everton win the whole thing, but I couldn't help but feel that both today's game and yesterday's one were not taken as seriously as they should have been by 3 of the 'big 4' of course, by the final whistle, it hits home what you've lost/won through to/on, but during both games there was a surreal air to proceedings until it came to crunch time - almost like a sudden death awareness scenario.

I think the tournament is valued against the CL these days - those teams still in the CL at this point of the season look upon the FA Cup with a little less desire than those who have 'only' that and the league left to play for.

It reminds me of how gutted we felt in '05 losing to Arsenal - it was all we had to play for and it was real serious to us then.

It's one of those competitions we tend to look at after the league and CL positions have been settled, and then rue not claiming it, now.

Right now I'm more gutted for the kids that played over anything else, which, if you think about it, is pretty wrong considering the history of the FA Cup.

I bet Wayne in particular will be gutted about this loss as he has stated that he badly wants to get his hands on the trophy to complete his trophy haul (how old is he again? >_< )

The joy seen on the Everton faces today would not have been reciprocated if we had won through. To a man, I think it's fair to say that. The eyes are still elsewhere, truth be told. I do wish we'd get that hunger back for this cup that we've lost since becoming perennial CL challengers.

[SirManchester]

I mentioned this in the match thread. Everything is measured against the Champions League now by the league's big four. I think if Ferguson took it as seriously as he does the other two competitions, we could easily have made the final but football nowadays demands so much of you that it's nearly impossible and we don't have the same personnel as a Chelsea who can cope far better with said demands.

I do hope one day though this team gets to experience FA Cup glory. I know Ronaldo has won it once but to win the league and the European Cup and miss out on a competition that the team is famous for leaves a bitter taste.

[sdotsom]

If we were out of the CL, we would have taken this seriously. As we are still in it - we did what we can. The season goes on, and alot of today's players acquitted themselves well today. And Rio/Vida were imperious.

[cr7torossi]

Well, Chelsea do seem to treat both cups fairly seriously.

It is just us and Arsenal who first made the league cup an extension of the Youth Cup and now are doing the same with the FA cup.

Given the state of the Wembley pitch and the talent and the desire of the kids and the fatigue of our starters, I was obviously pretty happy with the lineup. Not having Rooney or Ronaldo on the bench though was poor form imo.

[Dark Savante]

Well, Chelsea do seem to treat both cups fairly seriously.

It is just us and Arsenal who first made the league cup an extension of the Youth Cup and now are doing the same with the FA cup.

Given the state of the Wembley pitch and the talent and the desire of the kids and the fatigue of our starters, I was obviously pretty happy with the lineup. Not having Rooney or Ronaldo on the bench though was poor form imo.

Chelsea were mostly indifferent against Arsenal and were gifted two goals. They really didn't look 'up for it' in the way you associate a SF of the FA cup to be.

Both games had no nervous energy or tension about them. The pennos were unnerving, sure, but I don't think anyone could say they had the same teeth-clenching, heart-stopping fear of elimination they are reserving for the CL and PL games. I don't know if that's right or wrong, but it certainly feels wierd to me.

The FA Cup was absolutely, positively the biggest competition as a spectacle to win in England all through my childhood and way into the early 00's, but it's not like that for most now.

Did this feel any different to you from a CC game?

[pgr17]

do you think the fact that the two semis were played at Wembley instead of at Villa Park and Old Trafford took anything away from it the luster of the FA Cup? wasn't it always about "getting to the final at Wembley"?

i know why they are playing them at NW now but i thought our games in the previous rounds were pretty good affairs.

and i do think this competition was important for the club and the players... to add to our tally and to be in a final and especially for the "local" players - the FA Cup still means something to them.

[sdotsom]

Nope, seemed just like the CC Final.

That's the worst part. I remember Keano and Butt in 96, locking down midfield and Cantona's magic. 99, with Solskjaer in the early round against Lpool and Giggs against Arsenal.

Today, I barely cared. Didn't go to the bar, woke up only 3 minutes before the match, etc. I wanted to win, as usual, but it wasn't anything urgent.

[cr7torossi]

Chelsea were mostly indifferent against Arsenal and were gifted two goals. They really didn't look 'up for it' in the way you associate a SF of the FA cup to be.

Did this feel any different to you from a CC game?

I was refering to Chelsea and their team selections.

Rio and Vidic certainly were up for it as were most of the kids so you really cannot question the desire from the players

I do agree with you though; the lack of noise from our support (relative to Everton) in Wembley was quite noticeable so I guess we aren't the only ones who weren't up for it.

[Father Ted]

I've said this before on here but I think the automatic spot in the CL given to the Prem runners-up should go to the winners of the FA Cup. This would give team much more incentive to try harder in the FA Cup and give some of it's lusture back. In this case, the Prem winners and the FA Cup winners get into the CL proper and the 2nd and 3rd place teams from the Prem get to the qualifying round.

[Newtown]

I've said this before on here but I think the automatic spot in the CL given to the Prem runners-up should go to the winners of the FA Cup. This would give team much more incentive to try harder in the FA Cup and give some of it's lusture back. In this case, the Prem winners and the FA Cup winners get into the CL proper and the 2nd and 3rd place teams from the Prem get to the qualifying round.
Who exactly makes the decision on how CL spots are awarded? Is it the FA or UEFA?

[JayBoy]

Personally I think the Champions League should be governed as it's title; league and cup champions only. Of course that won't happen, too many flaws.

[The Natural]

Berbatov is not worth 30 million

What a lousy way for a striker to kick a penalty

[Karloski]

Personally it's felt like just a second Carling Cup for 3-4 years now. I was a wreck during the Porto and Villa games, yet totally relaxed for this one. There is no doubt that the consistency with which the big 4 get to the latter stages of the CL, means in some ways the FA cup can become a bit of a hinderance.

Even though I'm not as gutted as I thought I would be after the match. I'm still dissapointed. I just had a feeling we were going to be fighting on all fronts to the end. After seeing that amazing goal by Macheda and Ronaldo's 40 yard thunder bolt, It felt like all that foolish quintruple talk might just have a chance. I guess we've been spoilt for the last couple of years.:D

[sdotsom]

The PK was pathetic, because if you're going down the middle then you hammer it. But it still is just 1 PK. If you see the lack of effort on that PK as symbolic of Berbatov's overall "languid/laziness/etc" then so be it. I just think it was a bad PK, and that's that.

I don't think we should have bought him anyway, mind you, but it is what it is.

[Republic of Mancunia]

Who exactly makes the decision on how CL spots are awarded? Is it the FA or UEFA?

Looks like it's UEFA. From the 2008/09 regulations: (http://www.uefa.com/multimediafiles/download/regulations/uefa/others/70/22/60/702260_download.pdf)


1.02 UEFA member associations are represented on the following basis:
a) One representative: winner of the top domestic league championship.
b) Two representatives: winner and runner-up of the top domestic league
championship.
c) Three representatives: winner, runner-up and third-placed club in the top
domestic league championship.
d) Four representatives: winner, runner-up, third- and fourth-placed clubs in
the top domestic league championship.


Not sure how long it's been up to them but it can't have been for long. In recent seasons, there's been a playoff system in place in the dutch league (Link) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eredivisie#European_competition) that has seen the second place team miss out on two occasions. Am also about 80% sure I once saw a Champion's League qualifying match that featured a domestic cup winner in the past.

From the wikipedia link above that states that dutch are going to continue to hold playoffs for the UEFA Cup/Europa League, and from the 2008/09 UEFA Cup regulations (http://www.uefa.com/multimediafiles/download/regulations/uefa/others/70/22/70/702270_download.pdf) it looks like the National FAs still get some say over that particular competition (important part in bold):

UEFA member associations are represented on the following basis:
a) One representative: winner of the domestic cup.
b) Two representatives: winner of the domestic cup and the club which
finishes the top domestic league championship immediately below the club(s) which qualify for the UEFA Champions League.
c) Three representatives: winner of the domestic cup and the two clubs which finish the top league domestic championship immediately below the club(s) which qualify for the UEFA Champions League.
d) Four representatives: winner of the domestic cup and the three clubs which finish the top domestic league championship immediately below
the club(s) which qualify for the UEFA Champions League.
1.03 In special circumstances, the winner of another official domestic competition may be entered for the UEFA Cup instead of the lowest ranking top domestic league championship representative referred to in paragraphs 1.02c) and
1.02d), provided such a competition has been approved by UEFA before the
start of the season in question (see Annex Ia).

Can only presume that the playoffs in the Netherlands are classed as an approved competition for these purposes. Seems a little inconsistent to give the national associations a bit of input in one competition and not another to me, but there you go.

[Invincible]

With regards to the FA Cup...

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5701/giveashitometer.jpg

[yikchi]

It's sad but true... I just finished watching the match (without knowing the result beforehand) was upset about the lost. Now roughly 10mins later, I don't feel any disappointment... The thing I was upset about the most was Berba's penno... just too damn casual. if he scored I think we would go on and will the PK. And I don't understand why Rio and Vidic gets to take the 2nd and 3rd Pk before Carlitos and Ando... almost feels like SAF is trying to throw the Cup :p

[lynne]

Espn is reporting that Sir Alex says that he'd have started Berbatov, Scholes and Evra but for the state of the pitch at Wembley. True or not, you 'd think that something would have been done about that field before now.

[johno]

The PK was pathetic, because if you're going down the middle then you hammer it.

No. When keepers pick a side, if you hit it too hard, they can still stick out a leg and get it. Chipped ones down the middle work quite often if the keeper elects to pick a side because by the time they land, the keeper has too.

I'm not reading anything into the pk other than it was a miss.

[revelationx]

I've said this before on here but I think the automatic spot in the CL given to the Prem runners-up should go to the winners of the FA Cup. This would give team much more incentive to try harder in the FA Cup and give some of it's lusture back. In this case, the Prem winners and the FA Cup winners get into the CL proper and the 2nd and 3rd place teams from the Prem get to the qualifying round.

The Premier League would oppose such a move, as it has in the past. Losing a CL qualification place to another competition would weaken it. The FA would benefit as would the FA Cup specifically. No other European League gives a CL spot to it's domestic cup winners AFAIK.

The FA Cup does have great appeal still, it is possibly only the Big 4 clubs whose fans have developed more apathy towards it. Witness the Everton jubilation and the Pompey joy from last year. Such occasions are celebrated more because they happen infrequently.

There should be concern that the Big 4, as well as dominating the Prem and now the CL are also dominant in the FA Cup. Unless the Big 4 alters then expect more Doubles and Trebles achieved or narrowly missed.