Youngsters in MLS (1993 or later)

Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by Real Corona, Aug 12, 2012.

  1. Ironkick14

    Ironkick14 Member+

    Sep 29, 2011
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, while its true we didnt know how good of a player Donovan was going to be, he played for the full senior national team at 18 years old. No one from this U17 team will do that. However, that may just mean we are better now than we were in 2000.
     
  2. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Well, I think you're right on both counts.

    It's harder to break into the USMNT nowadays for a youngster. Paricularly when it seems like the USMNT coach is a real "veteran's coach." Despite how much people seem to lament our talent pool, it's much deeper than in the early 2000s's. Who exactly were Landon Donovan and DeMarcus Beasley keeping out of the squad in the 2000-2002 age? Steve Ralston? Nobody we missed anyway..............................so Arena went with a couple of youngsters. Arena always goes with a couple of youngsters. He has a reputation as a veteran's coach, but he always gives playing time to a few kids every year.

    It's one good thing about a youngster going to MLS. If he plays well, he can get into the USMNT squad. It's possible that a kid like Luis Gil could get a camp cupcake invite as an 18-19 year old. That's based on the fact that he's shown enough in MLS to be considered a really good prospect.

    A kid like Jorge Flores isn't going to go to Dortmund and play with the first team for a while. He's not going to be "in the window" for the US staff to see that much. A couple of times a year in US youth camps will be about it.
     
  3. CANPRO

    CANPRO Member+

    Dec 23, 2002
    FC Dallas has declined options on Homegrowns Ruben Luna and Bryan Leyva.
    Welcome to the vicious cycle gentlemen.
     
  4. Real Corona

    Real Corona Member+

    Jan 19, 2008
    Colorado
    Club:
    FC Metalist Kharkiv
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I will be honest, the few times I saw either of them play, I was unimpressed. Whether it's because Dallas didn't do enough for them or not, sometimes guys just aren't good enough.
     
  5. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    I like Leyva more than Luna. I thought Leyva had solid skill with room for improvement. I think he'll stick with one of the less talented squads. At least I hope so. Luna to me was just a big plodder who didn't have fluid soccer movement or skill. Top, Ulloa, and Hernandez better be nervous on how FC Dallas does their HG thing. I don't indict a team developing their own talent I indict the HG restrictive rules that doesn't allow MLS teams to determine nationally what players they want to sign. I hope we don't fool ourselves to think the HG program in any sense is a sound and sensible way to develop players and drop the program as written and do what every other team in the world does. They allow free movement of youth players so they can then determine which ones are the best, not limited to ones with cars and families willing to drive a few hundred miles a week for training.
     
    brandonesque and Pl@ymaker repped this.
  6. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Keep in mind that the front office personnel that signed all of those homegrowns is now gone. It's a different group of guys.

    Also keep in mind that Luna and Levya are/were Mexican youth internationals :)

    I wonder if some sort of weird roster slot rules came into play. I thought at least Luna had a green card, but maybe not. So perhaps that's why they were released as opposed to the US youth internationals.
     
  7. Balerion

    Balerion Member+

    Aug 5, 2006
    Roslindale, MA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What are the odds that they pop up on trial with the Rapids in a few months?
     
    Peter Bonetti repped this.
  8. Balerion

    Balerion Member+

    Aug 5, 2006
    Roslindale, MA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Also, what does this mean? I'm not sure if that's just a general statement or if Hyndman was implying something about Leyva and Luna.

    “[Injuries] gave those players another opportunity to play and we didn’t feel that they were playing well enough to keep them,” Hyndman told reporters on Tuesday. “We’ve got to make some changes. We don’t want the same thing next year to only count on, ‘Hey we’re recovered now.’ Also we want to work hard trying to find people that really have a desire and determination to be here.
    http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/11/07/fc-dallas-decline-options-homegrowns-luna-leyva
     
  9. Real Corona

    Real Corona Member+

    Jan 19, 2008
    Colorado
    Club:
    FC Metalist Kharkiv
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'd have to imagine it's connected.
     
  10. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    In better news, Richard Sanchez has signed a contract extension thru 2015.

    http://www.fcdallas.com/news/2012/11/fc-dallas-extends-richard-sanchez-through-2015

    [​IMG]

    Oh, and as far as Leyva and Luna go, this statement is interesting:

    The cuts of both bring to light the fact that perhaps FCD were too liberal in signing their academy players in the past rather than sending them to the college game for more professional and personal development.
     
  11. minya

    minya Member

    Mar 27, 2008
    san diego, ca
    I don't know whom they kept out, but Ralston was a better player than Zusi, or Shea, or Brad Davis,
    or Beckerman, or probably Danny Williams. It isn't like our NT full of superstars today.
     
  12. youth=glory

    youth=glory Member

    Sep 2, 2010
    We will probably never know. But signing kids at 17/18 and never playing them....its gotta hard for them to stay motivated. If anything I think it might just be SH trying to make it seem like its the players fault and kinda push the blame away from himself.

    I mean the timing of the Sanchez extension seems a little to coincidental if you ask me.
     
  13. scoachd1

    scoachd1 Member+

    Jun 2, 2004
    Southern California
    The personal development aspect is one advantage of college that most people who post on this board often overlook. Sure the limits on coaching are not ideal, but in addition to offering competitive games, colleges are in the business of helping kids transition from their parents homes to living and working on their own. Furthermore, college coaches are in the business of taking pampered stars and helping them understand that they have moved to a higher level and will need to develop their game. Dallas has some very good prospects in strong college programs. When these kids start coming back, the promise of FC Dallas youth teams will start to pay off.
     
    Real Corona repped this.
  14. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I think you're right.

    We've had several kids that have been signed to MLS under the age of 18 talk about how difficult the transition was. Bobby Convey and Santino Quaranta have talked at length about it.

    What's undeniably true is that FCD had an injury crisis this year. They gave some playing time to Leyva and Luna, and neither impressed. So they quickly went in another direction...........which admittedly didn't work either until Ferreira came back. Consider the case of Leyva. In the first few weeks of the season two of the main attacking midfielders on the depth chart ahead of him went down with long-term injuries. That was Ferreira and Villar, and Jackson hadn't made his return yet. Schellas gave Leyva 4 straight starts in May/June. FCD didn't win a single one of those games, and Bryan didn't stand out. For the rest of the year he only got 12 minutes. Bryan was one of the first homegrown signings in the league, signing in the fall of 2009. And of course he'd been with the club longer than that in the academy. If it wasn't working, it was time to cut the cord. It was probably time to decide whether to extend his contract or not anyway.

    Luna's an interesting case. He was a stud at the U18 level, and let's not forget that he was the leading goal-scorer in the reserve league last year. So clearly he was moving up the ladder in the way that he was supposed to. Then it stopped. Midway thru this year we all noted that it was Jonathan Top that was getting minutes, bench appearances, etc. Schellas was saying glowing things about him, and he clearly leap-frogged Ruben. I don't know why, but it's true. They sent Luna to the San Antonio Scorpions, where he didn't play much either. I have no idea what the problem has been...................but Luna's progress has stopped dead in its tracks.

    What I said a couple of pages back still holds. FCD has had a bunch of US U20's come thru the ranks in the last ~2 years: Danny Garcia, Boyd Okwuono, Mikey Ambrose, etc. The new front office didn't sign them to homegrown deals, but sent them to the NCAAs instead. [Kellyn Acosta being the exception, who I think might be on a different level. Just my opinion] This appears to be the approach that a lot of front offices are taking. If a kid is just a really good prospect, then the NCAAs is a better place right now. (we all want this to change in a few years with a real reserve division or NASL/USL partnership) If the kid is an elite prospect, like perhaps Acosta and Villarreal are, then they sign them up. But one senses one of the main reasons to sign these cases up is if they have interest from Europe/Mexico. I think there's no question this was the case with Richard Sanchez, for instance.

    Overall, I think we should all expect the same percentage of "failures" with homegrowns as draft picks. A lot of these kids just aren't going to make it, just like a large percentage of kids in Argentina, Spain, and Germany don't either. It's tough, but true nonetheless. Hopefully Leyva and Luna catch on with a club like the Scorpions, and get their careers on the right track.
     
    soccersubjectively repped this.
  15. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Hernandez is as good as gone.

    FCD is bringing in "postseason" trialists right now in preparation for 2013 preseason.

    http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/11/07/fc-dallas-bring-back-orlando-prospect-second-look

    One of the players is Charlie Campbell, a right back from Orlando City. I thought he was decent when watching him this season for a couple of games. (He was a former FCD draft pick, which is the only reason I focused on him)

    Basically, the club is looking for a cheap backup to Zach Loyd. Evidence suggests that they feel it isn't Moises Hernandez.

    One might note the other players they brought in might suggest Ulloa is in trouble:

    http://www.bigdsoccer.com/2012/11/7/3612172/FC-Dallas-Trialists-Peter-Luccin-Charlie-Campbell

    One is Peter Luccin, a central midfielder people might remember from his PSG and Atletico Madrid days. Another is Keith Savage, a central midfielder from the NASL Rowdies.


     
  16. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Interesting comments on Daniel's Big D soccer website from Hyndman:

    http://www.bigdsoccer.com/2012/11/6/3611960/schellas-hyndman-fc-dallas-ruben-luna-bryan-leyva

    In the future, do you think you may be more reluctant to sign younger players to HG deals?
    I don’t know if so much that, like we just signed Kellyn Acosta to be a part of the team and he’s not going to be ready, He'll be 17 going on 18. But we see so many things we like about him. His goal next year is to make the travel team, not to start. What happened this year when we had all our injuries is some of those players were put in a position to start.

    Do you think you'll be looking to send most of your good academy players to the college game in the future rather than signing them?
    I think college gives you many learning opportunities. You’re away from home and making your own decisions. Am I going to go to class and how much am I going to put forward into my training knowing I have a midterm coming.
    You’re playing in basically an age group that’s very similar to you. If you’re coming in as an 18 year old, maybe the oldest guy on the team is 22. We have guys here that are 30 years old and starting with international experience. I think maybe for some of those players it is good to go on to college. London Woodberry is a boy that went on and he’s playing for the #1 team in the country, starting, came through our academy. The other player is Ambrose who’s there, OC at Chapel Hill, Bradlee at South Carolina. There’s some players out there that we’re really monitoring and seeing how they continue to develop.
     
  17. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    I just hope we don't think the HG initiative is proper professional development and we indict professional development. We need to scrap the HG rules and open up recruitment and training.
    While I do think there are huge gaps in that MLS U18-U23 I hope we start again with filling it with proper structure rather than just think NCAA is the only way to go. I guess if teams are restricted to signing only players from their local area and only with their team and other areas with top talent aren't signing them where is the professional recruiting and training happening? Really nowhere. I want to see 2 paths to development an MLS path and a NCAA path. Right now both have huge limitations in their games. MLS can improve but seems to be reluctant to make any real change in how they want to develop players and NCAA hasn't any true improvement in how they train players. They aren't even on FIFA rules a basic ingredient in training how to play the game with only 3 subs and how to handle games late with added time instead of having a loud speaker counting down the seconds. I also don't want the Leyva and Luna cuts to think MLS now should cut all thoughts of player development and only use NCAA, I think it now should be more apparent that it shouldn't be scrapped but should be enhanced. I can't wait for the day that a player can train almost full time against professional players and take college courses without playing NCAA soccer. I want to love NCAA but have watched too many games where they aren't using basic tactical understanding of the game. At least in the DA MLS teams are teaching young players how to play the game the right way.
    We now just have to shift that teaching from 16-18 yr olds up to the next level from 18-22 yr olds.
     
  18. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    He's really begging the question and not answering it. Because players have to determine how little to train because of a midterm that some how is good for him developing into a professional soccer player? A youth professional don't take college courses? I know alot of young MLS players that have chosen to take college courses online and in person to become educated. IYouth professionals don't have to make time management and life decisions that help them adjust and evolve into better adults? I get that there is a step for a professional 18 yr old needs to take prior to getting to reserve then first team but he doesn't acknowledge MLS failures in filling in that gap and trys to group all MLS players together. That's not proper development. You don't consider an 18 yr old first time professional as a direct competitor to a 29 yr old 7 yr starter. If MLS doesn't realize this then tell us that they are not in any way going to develop proper infrastructure for developing youth professionals so I stop beating myself up in the hope that they want to. They talk out of both sides of their mouths.
     
  19. Dave Marino-Nachison

    Jun 9, 1999
    Take a guy like Alex Shinsky: He was a pretty good-looking U17, and almost certainly one of the top 100 players in his graduating class, but he's averaged less than 30 minutes a game in his sophomore season for a good U-Maryland team.

    Of course, if he was at another school he might be playing more, but in a less competitive setup alongside (and against) more players who are not pro prospects. And if he was on an MLS roster, he might have played even less, but in a more competitive setup, and trained against better players.

    None of those three outcomes seems ideal for a top-tier youth player. Seems to me they should be somewhere where they are training daily, playing matches (at least) weekly and getting high-level coaching alongside other, comparable, prospects. (Edit: And -- not paying to do so. )

    The number of American players between 17-20 getting an experience like that at any given time is pretty low -- and always has been -- though it is probably rising as MLS builds out its setup, college talent consolidates (this seems to be the case, but that's only an anecdotal observation) and a few more players head to other countries here and there. Still, it's a piecemeal process at best.
     
    soccersubjectively repped this.
  20. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    Its like we're trying to hodge podge a system where none of the comprehensive development elements exists for players 18-21 in any of them and then we bitch about that we're losing games we shouldn't. Duh! MLS has huge gaps, NCAA has huge gaps, International setups are best but the human investment to move and compete at that level is for the lucky few. Not a good feeling in my stomach today.
     
    soccersubjectively repped this.
  21. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I think that in a roundabout way you and Hyndman have the same opinion. He's not a youth development expert, and he knows that playing time for youngsters at the league is at a premium. It's not Hyndman's job to worry about a future reserve league or NASL partnership. He's getting paid to do what's best for FC Dallas right now.

    Here's what FCD is seeing right now in their pipeline.

    Some Major NCAA awards came out today:

    Danny Garcia named ACC Freshman of the year/All-ACC Second team/All-ACC Freshman Team

    Boyd Okwuono named All-ACC First Team

    London Woodberry named All-ACC Second team

    Mikey Ambrose named All-ACC Second Team/All-ACC Freshman Team

    Jamie Ibarra named Co-Conference USA Player of the Year / Conference USA Defensive Player of the Year / Conference USA first-team

    Damien Rosales named to CUSA second-team -

    Bradlee Baladez named to CUS second-team

    More on the way from other conferences...............

    FCD has a bunch of kids coming thru the NCAAs that are doing well. He's seeing film on these kids. Perhaps he feels that those kids are improving at a faster rate that the kids that are getting MLS reserve ball and sporadic first team opportunities.

    How is this competition going?

    Leyva versus Garcia
    Ulloa versus Ambrose
    Hernandez versus Woodberry
    Luna versus Baladez
    Sanchez versus Ibarra

    One set of kids is in the NCAAs and the other signed homegrown deals. Right now I'd rather be London Woodberry than Moises Hernandez.
     
  22. ielag

    ielag Member+

    Jul 20, 2010
    I have to imagine the threat of MFL teams signing some of these kids carried some weight on giving them HG deals.
     
  23. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Leyva...................yes.

    Luna................I'm not so sure.

    Sanchez..............definitely.

    I would be surprised if both don't end up somewhere down in Mexico.
     
  24. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?
    I think your setting up the wrong arguement. What does 2nd team CUSA have anything to do with professional youth talent evaluation? What does London Woodberry have to do with M.Hernandez. Its like winning an achievement award at work with the fancy gold seal print out then bragging that your going to get the manager's job in a few years. It has absolutely nothing to do with each other and in some way its a pricky way to brag about something that has nothing to do with future evaluation. I don't play the xxxx vs xxxx games. Its irrelevant to fixing MLS development gaps or NCAA development gaps. Blaming B.Leyva for the overall failing of MLS development model misplaces the blame. I hope one day Bryan Leyva gets alot of first team minutes with Portland and around that same time some college player gets cut so I can post some jerky thread saying hey how that college career work out for you?
     
  25. Real Corona

    Real Corona Member+

    Jan 19, 2008
    Colorado
    Club:
    FC Metalist Kharkiv
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

Share This Page