Look, you can't ignore that no teams were bailing out after Year 3 because of the financial bleeding. Attendance jumped almost 80% after the World Cup and that wasn't just for a single game or two. It's quite possible WPS, or any women's pro league, can't make it. But it's really not enough to be "right" about it. You know, years ago many people said no one would ever bother watching women play sports. Then they said, well, no one would watch them play team sports. Then they said it was just a once-in-a-lifetime thing - Mia Hamm and the whole gang in '99. Now we're saying it's only a once-every-four-years thing, already fudging on that with the Olympics so maybe it's a 2 out of 4 years thing. Considering how far we've come, is it that far from 2 out of every 4 years to where we're trying to get with a pro league?
Here's one way to look at the question: How many professional women's soccer players can the United States support? We've known for years it's at least, say, 30 -- the basic national team pool. But we've struggled to get that to 150, enough to populate a fully professional league. Even at six teams, WPS had players whose salaries were barely what we'd recognize as "professional." (Technically, it doesn't matter -- you're paid or you're not, whether you're Marta or the backup left mid for the Atlanta Beat.) To get to a point of having 150, I think we need stability. We can't have St. Louis booms and busts. We need teams who can put down roots. Maybe the local youth powerhouses will eventually realize they exist and, more importantly, won't be disappearing next year. Within that structure, there will be opportunities for teams to go big. Even in Wilt's austerity plan, you have the equivalent of MLS DPs. And frankly, the casual fan isn't going to get hung up on whether the starting right back is getting paid $40K for the season. Maybe the team has a Wambach or a Morgan somewhere on the field, and the starting right back is a decent player who runs a lot of camps. Now here's the kicker for those arguing about how many leagues have failed and so forth (for the record, those D2 leagues haven't failed -- they've merged and evolved but not failed): We have not yet tried this model. WPS wasn't able to turn the corner and attract enough investors for its model, even after it scaled back from its original plan, which was already scaled back in a big way from the WUSA. Then you can say, "Well, the W-League and WPSL haven't delivered." In some senses, that's debatable -- I saw an NJ Wildcats-Washington Freedom W-League game that was fantastic and featured several players you know well today. But that was still basically amateur. The first attempt at something akin to the Wilt model is the WPSL Elite League this year. Can we see how it goes?
There were (and are) some excellent teams in W-League and WPSL. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is how many games, how many matchups, were like that? And your average matchup, how far away from that are we talking about, compared to the average WPS matchup? One problem with the Wilt Model and "seeing how it goes" is we're talking about slow organic growth. Aren't we supposed to check back with them in 5 years and see if they're still around? I've asked in a couple other forums (or on Twitter), what's our definition of success here? I mean, if it just means survival, we're already satisfied they can pass that test because they're still here now. But what else? For one thing, there has to be a certain quality to the game (the ol' "product on the field" idea) - something that makes for compelling sport that people are willing to pay to watch. I believe it's fair to say WPS was winning that battle and passing that test. But not by a huge margin - if we lower that quality two or three notches we wouldn't be so confident that the "product on the field" is good enough. We almost take for granted that WPS was succeeding on that level and in turn assume that a pro division W-League or WPSL would do the same. That's a completely unwarranted assumption. Don't get me wrong, I think W-League and WPSL are great at what they are. I'll go see some Pali Blues games this year. But if we want to see professional women's soccer get anywhere we want it to go anytime in our lifetime (at least some of us older guys' lifetime), someone has to take a bigger leap somewhere. Someone has to show some vision - and some already have. No one's pretending it's going to be on the scale of what Anschutz and Hunt did for MLS but it doesn't have to be. I'll give Judge Doom's "vision" speech yet...
If a number of people with the commitment level of Anschutz and Hunt (not necessarily the dollar amount -- only so many people with that much money) want to step forward and do this, that changes everything. But they shouldn't do so with the assumption of making their money back quickly, and a new league shouldn't be set up with the assumption of landing owners like that.
You're absolutely right. Although, I don't think WUSA or WPS were set up on unreasonable expectations . . . the issue was that things (like huge recessions, or AOL buying TW with pretend money) have happened. That doesn't mean the good of the game doesn't require some more of these folks. Which is true for women's soccer, MLS, the BPL, etc.
I think WPS had reasonable (if still exaggerated) expectations. I'm rather more dubious about the WUSA - it was never going to make sense to have the Freedom playing at RFK. (It hardly makes sense to have DC United playing at RFK.)
MLS would've folded long ago if they didn't have billionaire benefactors to bail the league out. I bet most MLS teams still lose money. The ratings are still horrible and MLS is ignored by the mainstream! If WPS even had 10% of the benefactors MLS has then the league would be alive and well. Women's soccer needs a rich benefactor to prop the pro league up!
I suggested that they scrap WPS and thereby terminate MJ rights and form a new league. Indoor soccer changes league names and reinvents itself... SB Owner who was on WPSCHAT said no... If the are abandoning WPS.... I think the owners have given up or at least a couple did. 3 years is the record for a Women's Pro league and I do not see one starting up anytime soon.
Sorry i'm late to this "party". Just wanted to clarify that my December proposal called for 2-3 designated players per team (up to 60 total based on 20 teams and three DPs/team) who would make what the USWNT players and top internationals were making in WPS ($4k to $10k/month in season). WPSL Elite and hopefully a W-Pro next year are much closer to what i proposed than WPS, but it's not good enough. I believe it still needs three more key elements to provide a sustainable model with roots that can grow into a major national pro women's soccer league: 1) Critical mass of teams (20) for regional play throughout the country, which would likely require a merger between the two leagues 2) Formal policy on DPs 3) Formal, if minimal, relationship with MLS
I don't believe he was holding himself out as the man who could bring these disparate interests to the table, and from the table to an accord, and from an accord to an everlasting peace and prosperity. Merely a former stakeholder with ideas on what might be the way forward. One of the larger problems American soccer has had over the years has been those disparate interests refusing to compromise in the name of progress. From the Soccer Wars of the early 20th century to the USL/TOA split more recently, everyone seems to think their way is the only way and that, somehow, they're all stronger as separate entities than as one entity with a common purpose. If the various leagues insist on continuing to do things on their own, we may be in for more of the same. But no one can get the leagues to come together if no one is talking about getting them to come together. You're probably right, though. People who aren't sure they could make all these things happen by sheer force of their will should just pipe down so the people who just insist we keep creating D1 leagues over and over so they can feel better about themselves dominate the conversation.
Oh, I know. Just pointing out that USL-WPSL cooperation is in the "easier said than done" category. But easier than starting a D1 league from scratch? Maybe so. Of course, U.S. Soccer might be able to bring some force to bear in this regard but it isn't. It won't. It don't. It doesn't. It ain't.
Do you seriously think that FINANCIALLY, you could make money selling "hey come out and watch Abbey, Hope, Carli & 8 players who were willing to come along with them vs. Morgan, Ali, & Stephanie Cox and the . . . women willing to come out tonight and play?" Do you understand the training environment you're creating (well, the non-training environment)? You figure it costs (w/ travel, refs, expenses) $5-30k to put on a game . . . now you can't televise it, so your only revenue comes from sponsors & butts in seats - and these games would be at high risk of being un-watchable. Not to mention, you're going to have a tough time building up name recognition because it's tough to hang on to players you're not paying. How long does this last in terms of franchise/league viability . . . what's the path to profitability? The WPS may not have "made it" but I'm 1) tired of having you misrepresent the argument for having a fully professional league, and 2) ignoring the fact that there have been pro women's matches that drew enough (live AND on TV) to make it worthwhile. There haven't been enough of them, and instead of Anschutz, WPS got DB, but honestly, I don't see any future in D2 that it's going to "evolve" into something bigger. You're just arguing that a different thing that hasn't happened, will. There's a great deal more evidence against it than in trying to "go big," but you're entitled to your opinion - don't be a jerk (or check your assertions about Vancouver on wikipedia, whatever) On the plus side, this means Wilt's talking about 40-60 DP's . . . that's not what I got from his earlier posts. The other interesting thing, is I'd rather see 6 "elite" teams in one region (so cut travel costs and push TV), or even better, 12 teams - 6 along the east coast and 6 on the west coast with only a championship match/playoff interplay. Wilt seems to think having a national footprint is more important vs. quality of play/TV opportunities. Of course he's coming from Chicago/Milwaukee . . .
One of the best games I ever saw was the NJ Wildcats vs. Washington Freedom in the W-League. There were a handful of national team fringe players on the field, and the coaches were Charlie Naimo and Jim Gabarra. Don't underestimate what can be done at a lower level. Add some of Wilt's "DPs" to that mix, and more people would see it. Then maybe that gains some traction and we end up with a legit pro league.
Reminds me of another great game that no one saw. Steve Young vs Jim Kelly in the USFL- http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1119186/1/index.htm Pro sports is a tough business.
Was this the one in 2005 New Brunswick NJ because that team had Rachel Unit and Rachel Yankey, Kendall Fletcher, Karina LeBlanc, Kacey White - Freedom had Jo Lohman, Kylie Bivens and Tiffany Roberts plus a few others. best soccer match I saw that year and the fastest play in W-League 2006 both teams had several exceptional players.... both teams were pretty much a lock to beat all the other teams and were playing only for the playoffs (Ottawa and Vancouver had many Canadian national team members and were the only 2 that challenged the Wildcats during those 3 years that Charlie was there) You will see a few teams that win every game and a few teams that get crushed everygame, no exitement to watch a winning team win by 4 goals... btw.... the wildcats lost modest amount of money every year... lost more the year they won the championship.
Both games remind me of the 1995 USISL Championship ay Mitchell Park in Lomg Island. Minnesota Thunder vs. LI Rough Riders. It was the final pre-MLS men's pro outdoor game in the US. Both rosters weree stacked. My Thunder had future MLSers Tony Sanneh, Manny Lagos and Amos Magee, former Nantes stalwart Pierre Morice and a host of lesser known, but quality players. LI had Tony Meola, Chris Armas, Giovanni Savarese and several other quality players. Score was 1-1 as the countdown clock the USISL was experimenting with counted under ten seconds in regulation when Armas barely saved a ball on the end line crossing it to Gio who scored with :06 left....heartbreaking for me.... exhilarating for LI and their fans. One of the greatest matches i've ever seen.
For the most part, I don't happen to believe quality of play will suffer due to increased number of teams. i believe there are enough players world wide to fill the 2-3 DP slots whether there are six teams or 20 without a major change in talent level. The number of suitable "role players" will increase if given the opportunity to train and play at this level on a regular basis. Anyways, sorry you got the wrong impression from earlier posts. Here's the original post as a reminder of what the proposal included. These were the highlights: Base player salary budget of $100,000 to $150,000 per team. 18 players per team. $0k to $3k per month in season per player. 2-3 designated players per team. $4k to $10k per month in season per player. DP salaries are off budget. Recommended annual operation budget of $200,000 to $400,000 not including player compensation, though teams that are willing and able could spend more on the business end. No NCAA eligible players April though August season (extension through September in Olympic and WWC years) Invite all current members of WPS, W-League, WPSL and MLS to place teams in the new League. No entry fee for inaugural season. $100,000 entry fee for expansion teams in ensuing seasons. Must commit by last day of previous season to be eligible for following season. $100,000 letter of credit for all teams to guarantee finishing season if teams can’t pay bills mid-season. Operate league for the first year on a cooperative basis by US Soccer, USL and MLS. USL and MLS operate the league going forward after the first season. US Soccer would establish new, more realistic standards for a professional women’s league comparable to top women’s leagues in Europe. This would allow both low budget and medium budget teams to compete on a relatively level playing field. In the first year, US Soccer would provide an overriding layer of governance similar to the 2010 D-2 League. USL would use its infrastructure to manage the league’s administrative needs similar to its MISL relationship. USL’s compensation coming from low five figure annual league dues and a percentage of new franchise fees. MLS/SUM would handle the league’s broadcast, marketing, sponsorship and communication responsibilities. MLS’ compensation coming from a percentage of sponsorship fees it generates. If enough teams apply, play will be regional until the playoffs to limit travel expenses and increase rivalries.
I think you are right, there was a special Wildcats game in 05 at New Brunswick HS stadium; we worked the gate together. The team gave away tickets to NB soccer clubs for that game. The wildcats also had O'Reilly, Tarpley and Cat Reddick that year '05, and a young Tobin Heath who did not play much. Charlie is a real salesman. the owner Vince, after winning the championship game at home, said something along the lines that he would need help to do it (host the game) again. Another good game that year that only a few hundred saw was the Wildcats playing a U21 team (the team that would go to the Nordic Cup each year) at PDA. Reddick, Welsh, White, and other int'ls for Wildcats against the American team that included O'Reilly and Tarpley. I foreget the score, but many felt it was a better game than a WNT game the previous weekend.
I came up for that match - still one of the best women's club matches I've ever seen. The Wildcats still have the game report up on their website: http://www.njwildcats.com/home/103373.html . A few other names of note played that day: Carrie Moore, Casey Zimny, Emily Janss, Betsy Barr, Lori Lindsey, Ali Krieger, Jacqui Little (all for the Freedom). Unfortunately for them, the Wildcats WNTers were up with the WNT at the time.
I believe they played a home-and-home with the Wildcats both years. Since both teams were really good, they were always a battle. I have old writeups on the 2005 and 2006 matches elsewhere on this forum: 2005 (very brief): http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/washington-freedom-soccer-club.163420/page-4#post-5679596 2006: http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/washington-freedom-soccer-club.163420/page-7#post-9038919 Or perhaps you were thinking of the 2007 match against Jersey Sky Blue, which you were very complimentary about: http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/...w-league-thread-r.538047/page-3#post-11979920 (My writeup is the next post.)
It might've been that one. They were all pretty good. Years before that, the Wildcats brought Kelly Smith and Marinette Pichon to the Plex. In general -- just look at those rosters! WPS couldn't get Dickenmann, but the W-League did!
But your talking about a handful of teams that were well matched when most of the time there was no doubt the Wildcats would win in 2004 (Smith and Pichon) , 2005 (HAO, KK, others) and 2006 (Hooper, KK, Formiga, Makoski) I think you will see the same thing and the talent will not be diluted over teams... players will go where they feel they get the best training.
