Would Argentina have won the 1986 World Cup if Pele in place of Maradona?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Jaweirdo, Aug 27, 2013.

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Does Argentina win the 86' world cup win with a prime Pele in place of Maradona?

Poll closed Aug 27, 2014.
  1. yes

    18 vote(s)
    46.2%
  2. no

    21 vote(s)
    53.8%
  1. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Let me clarify (one can go back and read my lines)
    1- I just said missing names of Vava adn Tosstao in TOP100 WC players ! (not necessary they will be placed higher then Lineker depends on criteria)
    2- In bracket I meant they were better player (more all rounded in general) then say Lineker/

    =================================
    For example, some might list Klose very high in TOP100 WC players = yes in a sense ...(14goals?) but if missing say, Falcao or Rivelino in that list was ridiculous ... as they were (surely) better player than Klose (and they were not bad at all there)
     
  2. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Talent is irrelevant in this discussion.

    George Best was one of the most talented players of all time but he never appeared at a World Cup, hence no appearance in this list.

    The goals against Poland were crucial because they killed the game before half-time against a side who had been semi-finalists four years earlier. It's easy to dismiss the second and third goals as ultimately irrelevant but if Lineker had only scored one the pressure would have built and the danger was there for a comeback.

    Equally against Paraguay he quickly subdued an opponent who started brightly and could have troubled England.

    None of Lineker's goals came in irrelevant hammerings. All of them were significant in helping his team.

    Tostao, great player that he was, was arguably the fifth best player on his own team in 1970 (after Pele, Rivellino, Jairzinho and Gerson). In 1966 he played one game, scoring in the defeat to Hungary.
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Why was Tostao the fifth best in 1970? Pelé and Jairzinho seem logical but Rivelino too?

    Gerson had a different role, so that will depend more on what's valued highly.

    Tostao has a credible claim for being man of the match in the quarter-final (Peru) and semi-final (Uruguay).
     
  4. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I'm not saying he was necessarily the fifth best but equally why is he better than fifth?
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    As a start it might be said that Rivelino wasn't the best Brazilian forward in any of the games. Tostao had Peru as stand-out game.
    In general his understanding with Pelé was very important and effective, characterized as a 'twin' in the press; hence Pelé said in February 1970 a few times that the inclusion of Tostao would result in the victory.
    Maybe it was not a coincidence too that Rivelino played largely at the sides instead of a beloved central role.
    So that might be why he was 'better' as Rivelino in 1970.
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Does it make sense or did I say something stupid?

    Probably Rivelino has an edge in the timing of his goals and assists in comparison with Tostao.

    That said, Lineker is probably the only striker in post-war World Cup history who can claim to be the best performing striker in two separate tournaments.
     
  7. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Was Lineker better than Schillaci at WC90?

    @PuckVanHeel
     
  8. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Good question. For only one WC, I will give an edge for Schillaci (just like Rossi 82)
    Over all WC, Lineker was just better (more all rounded and delivered well)
     
  9. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    You might not get my point.
    G Best was great but he never played WC so no discussion here.
    Tostao, Rivelino ... Vava did play at least 1 good WC ...

    I agree with you that Tostao was barely 5th bets player in that team 70, but imagine if Lineker was playing for that same team? would he make #5? probably not ...
    Just like we say Valdez might be the WORST player in Barca prime time, but he was arguably worldclass in his best though ...
     
  10. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Tostao was the best player of Brazil '70, with Gerson, Pele, Rivelino and Jairzinho following close behind. Also Carlos Alberto and Clodoaldo were excellent in defensive roles.
     
  11. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    I agree Rivelino was slightly better than Tostao. (or like Comme said #5 in that team 70)

    I think you meant ... to say ENGLISH striker (!)
    Many great strikers did good to great at two WC's :Vava, Rossi, Ronaldo, Baggio, Klinsman, Batistuta, Vieiri ... and recently Klose :)p)
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Interesting link between Tostao and Lineker....

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Nice link, at least Lineker has possessed a good taste in attacking Football with Pele and Tostao as his front men plus Cruijff and Best supporting behind ..
    Just wonder when that was (no date?) and which Cooper?

    I believed Lineker's best XI was a 4 4 2 ?

    ------------Pele ----- Tostao ------------
    Cruijff ---------------------------G Best
    -------- A.Ball ----- B.Charlton ---------
    I.Cooper? ----------------------C.Alberto
    ----------Moore ---Beckenbauer--------
    ------------------ Banks ------------------
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Terry Cooper probably.
     
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  15. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Oh thanks you're spot on ... agree .. must be Terry
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    In the same magazine (Shoot) and section I noticed that Cruijff paid some tribute to Pelé.


    [​IMG]

    By the way, apparently he was very popular among the readers of Shoot magazine. Wasn't able to find it for other years (though in 1974 Bremner & Dalglish were by the readers voted as most exciting domestic players), but in 1973 he won with 90% of the votes!
    Show Spoiler
    [​IMG]


    Sadly, cannot find it for other years right now...


    Would Venezuela have won the World Cup with Pelé in their team :D ?
    [​IMG]

    Pelé refused to pose in an Argentina shirt I guess?
     
  17. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Cruyff is almost 67 now? Seemed like yesterday that he was leading the Barca Dream Team to such glory, as a relatively young 43 year old manager.
     
  18. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    This ... ?
    [​IMG]
     
  19. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #1169 JamesBH11, Mar 20, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2014
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Interesting anecdote regarding 1986WC.

    In today's newspaper ('Algemeen Dagblad') a piece about the referee for the upcoming World Cup 2014 final. It's said that Bjorn Kuipers his name is mentioned in the corridors, and ofc some attention exists because he is Dutch (and a pro-Barca ref ;) ).
    Anyway, a former referee, Jan Keizer tells and confirms about the 1986WC some things. That is: the 1986 final was supposed to go to an European referee, with Keizer on the final shortlist too.
    However, Brazil became eliminated prematurely and sooner than expected (despite the infamous Spain-Brazil game in the grp stage and Socrates his remarks etc.). Result was that Joao Havelange saw space to vouch for fellow countryman Filho as referee (who slept in the same hotel as all other referees of course). And that is what happened; the widely held expectation of an European referee to lead to final did not come out.
    The 1982 World Cup final was also led by a Brazilian, Cézar Coelho, and the 'corridors' or 'Kremlin watchers' - so to speak - were not expecting a repeat of this scenario; even in case of a premature elimination of Brazil before the semi-finals stage.

    Bottom-line of Keizer his point is: a lot of things can happen in between now and the actual final, but I found the anecdote he told/confirmed interesting.
     
  21. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Yes I read that ...
    But not sure if you know the controversial at WC66 was even BIGGER to STOP Brazil from winning 3 straight WC, and eventually backing up England to win instead ...

    - In group: 3 games were ref by England REF and Germany against Brazil
    - the result was that Pele was hard tackled (vs Bulgaria and Portugal) and was kinda limping, walking on the pitch for 50mins, with no reaction from REF!!!!
    - Brazil EXIT EARLY at GRP stage (for their very FIRST EVER SHAMEFUL WC history)
     
  22. Bruford

    Bruford Member

    Sep 23, 2012
    #1172 Bruford, Mar 29, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2014
    World soccer magazine just published this week their top 50 greatest players of World cups. The magazine established as criteria for their ranking: individual awards, decisive role in big matches, player importance for their teams and legacy in the history of the event. Their list included Vavá, but sadly excluded names like Rivaldo, Stoichkov and Hagi.

    1-Pelé
    2-Maradona
    3-Beckenbauer
    4-Garrincha
    5-Gerd Muller
    6-Ronaldo
    7-Cruyff
    8-Zidane
    9-Just Fontaine
    10-Lothar Matthaus
    11-Ferenc Puskas
    12-Roberto Baggio
    13-Romario
    14-Buffon
    15-Bobby Charlton
    16-Cafu
    17-Seeler
    18-Platini
    19-Klinsmann
    20-Jairzinho
    21-Maldini
    22-Klose
    23-Yashin
    24-Eusebio
    25-Cannavaro
    26-Lato
    27-Rummenigge
    28-Kempes
    29-Thierry Henry
    30-Gordon Banks
    31-Didi
    32-Bobby Moore
    33-Giuseppe Meazza
    34-Vavá
    35-Xavi
    36-Gary Lineker
    37-Roger Milla
    38-Dino Zoff
    39-Cubillas
    40-Paolo Rossi
    41-Batistuta
    42-Bergkamp
    43-Barthez
    44-Suker
    45-Oliver Kahn
    46-Iniesta
    47-Forlan
    48-Donovan
    49-Salenko
    50-Thuram
    http://engagedmediamags.com/sports-.../special-issues/50-greatest-world-cup-players
    http://placar.abril.com.br/materia/com-pele-no-topo-revista-elege-os-50-maiores-jogadores-em-copas
     
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  23. lanman

    lanman BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 30, 2002
    I'm always amazed at how high Puskas is placed in these lists. He played three games for Hungary - 1 against Korea, 1 against an under strength West Germany and another half fit - and three games for Spain aged 35 without doing too much.

    Agree on the omissions (especially if Landon Donovan is included) and Thuram is far, far too low.
     
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  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Too high: Beckenbauer, Fontaine, Muller, Matthaus, Puskas, Buffon, Baggio, Romario, Klinsmann, Cafu, Thierry Henry (what did he do at the World Cup to merit 29th place?).

    Barthez? Donovan?

    Too low: Eusebio, Kempes, Didi, Xavi, Rossi, Moore, Lineker, Thuram

    Didi below people as Henry and Rummenigge (at World Cups) is mind-boggling.
     
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  25. lanman

    lanman BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 30, 2002
    Am I missing something, or did they include Oleg Salenko and leave out Sandor Kocsis?
     

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