Would Argentina have won the 1986 World Cup if Pele in place of Maradona?

One point is also in this case 33% higher, which is quite significant.

The difference between Valdo vs Maradona was that Valdo lacked the genius moment, the sum of routine does not equal anything sublime. But Socrates vs Platini was alike in all aspects, and you don't mention that Muller hits the post after a pass by Socrates that would have made the match 2-0 and effectively over since France would have to overcome it against a defense that at that point had yet to give up a goal.

@PuckVanHeel

 

I respect that but I read Platini (and Michel) made similar statements before the 1986WC, that the forward line was a weakness and they would miss José Toure indeed (because he was a good fit with the midfield).

Btw, not implying it is reliable but the Castrol index gave a way higher rating to the 1986 version of Platini as 1990 version of Maradona. Platini made the top 20 while Maradona was outside the top 50 of 1990WC.

 

With match ratings it actually is not. A reviewer cannot analyse all 22 players with the same attention, focus, standards and so on. So there will always be a margin of error. A different reviewer might as well turn the numbers around, with Platini getting a 4/6 and Socrates a 3/6. That said, the 'big names' will naturally attract attention by reviewers.

Besides, I said it is in my perception not a clear difference in performance. France Football is NOT the bible.

Fine, but I don't see how that tackles the observation.

Imagine, Bellone shoots in the ball - the sentence becomes something like this:
"The difference between Socrates vs Platini was that Socrates lacked the genius moment"

 

Sorry, but I don't buy that. You use FF's rating anytime it convenes your argument but now you quickly dismiss it because it does not support your view. I myself don't see it as a bible but you clearly do when their ratings is not high for a South American player (whom you all despise because you just cannot accept the greatness of a different continent).

Imagine Muller scores instead of hitting the post and the match is essentially over at the half. It's not even a discussion between Socrates and Platini for the tournament then, as it is while not a major gap in class, Socrates showed the better game that day.

 

If I mention it (and it was me mentioning the match ratings, not you bringing them in the 'discussion') while I do not entirely agree, it is not for mere convenience. Convenient would be if I totally ignore it. On the contrary, I was the first to include them.

Sorry, but you're talking nonsense.

 

Yes, it was you who brought them up and quickly disagreed, which you almost never do for FF"s ratings. I myself agree or disagree based on my own judgement of the match, but I see you often post them as authority so it's odd that now you don't give it the same regard.

@PuckVanHeel

 

You're wrong. For example with Riquelme I only stated it is no mere coincidence that his 2006 ratings show a downward slope. That's all. I did not claim it is the objective fact. I only said, and I think rightly so, that the ratings follow a neat pattern - a downwards pattern.

And the accuracy of those ratings have been covered throughout the thread here, and previous threads, by various persons.

You cannot even admit you are clearly wrong on some points. "You use FF's rating anytime it convenes your argument." No, I don't.

And this is really all what I have to say about it.

 

I would say Riquelme's best match was against Ivory Coast, followed by his one against Mexico. His performance was however entirely consistent, although his lowest rating (from me) would be against Germany.

I wrote that because I cannot remember you challenging a rating by FF before this time. However, if that is not correct, I can admit it's my mistake.

@PuckVanHeel

 

Precisely. He claims luck can affect the way the performance of a player is seen. It sure can. I agreed with it and offered the Maradona example. Had Olarticoechea scored that goal, can you imagine how it would have changed how Maradona overall 1990 performance is seen? In 1986 a young and fit Maradona made people's minds blow up with his performance in QFs against England, and then again in semis agaisnt Belgium. In 1990, a battered Maradona hindered by injuries would have done just the same and by strokes of his genius he would have moved his team past no others than Brazil in QFs and hosts Italy in semis.

In this respect I think it is fair to point a couple of things too. In 1990 Maradona had only Caniggia in front of him while in 1986 Platini had two forwards in front of him (Papin, Rocheteau and Stopyra, two of those three were always there). Also, would it be fair to say that Platini in 1986 was not as harrassed by rivals as Maradona was in 1990? I have not seen the full matches of France in 1986, but looking at the highlights they often show Platini very much free of markers placing a nice pass. At the same time, Maradona in 1990 was often chased down to his own half in order to prevent him from receiving the ball and turning around... I have not counted them, but I would not be surprised if Platini in 1986 could and would have created more chances than Maradona in 1990 under these circumstances.

Those are just two memorable moments Maradona left in 1990 and nice examples of how Maradona, even when physically hindered and relentlessly chased down by his markers could change the course of a game with a stroke of his genius at the biggest stage of all (I know you, Comme and a few others are probably gonna hate the sound of that ). Platini left none of those in 1986.

 

On what is this based?

Maradona had plenty of free space at the 1990 World Cup to spray his passes, even against a team like Italy in the semis and certainly against Brazil. Many think his best group stage game was against the USSR; again that was an opponent conceding some freedom to him.
Likewise, Platini had also his moments where he was closed down by markers. Obviously not against Brazil, but against West Germany he was almost continuously shadowed (and almost invisible).

It will be impossible to show who had the fewest space, and I really don't have a clue about that, but definitely also Platini was denied any space in some of the games. But not against Brazil in the scorching heat, yes (in particular when passing from deep positions).

Look at the 1990 game against USSR and notice how a team coached by Lobanovski played (although they played with 10 men for one half, after Caniggia was denied a goal-scoring opportunity).

By the way, maybe the heat in Mexico also suited Maradona well, to an extent. Who knows.

 

I stand by what I said and how I said it. Here is Maradona against the Soviets in 1990. Look how he was followed down his own half so he would not receive and turn almost every time. Wont bother posting the same for the game against Brazil. They hacked him pretty much every time he came in contact with the ball or was about to. Looks like they were scared shitless of he might do. Funny how it turned out. Anyways, here Maradona against USSR:

 

I'm not saying I agree but are you aware that big sections of the press accused him of diving and embellishing fouls? Argentina was seen as a 'dirty' team (also against Italy!) and as a team trying to gain as many free kicks as possible. Again, I do not necessarily agree but the general opinion was more on the side of winning non-existent fouls rather than the opposite. That said, he was also unpopular because of other reasons.

I read in the archives that after the semi-final against Italy Maradona said how they won because "Naples hates/dislikes Italy".
Fully agree it would lift up the perception if Olarticoechea scores in extra time. But it wasn't an easy attempt like the free chance for Canniggia against Brazil. Olartichoechea was forced to shoot in one instance, without time to trap the ball and control it. It increases the chance it goes wide or will be saved. It is a major difference with Canniggia (or Bellone) their chances. It is a minor detail but a relevant distinction for the 'what if' scenario and the attributed failure of the finisher to capitalize on the delivery by the creator.

Italy also had fitness problems in extra time with various players showing muscle cramp. I guess they gambled to win the game in regular time.

 

Its not really what I was talking about what you say about the fouls, but sure, I can believe it was so. Then again, if the guy was more often than not chased down to his own half to prevent him from receiving the ball, I can understand how at some point or another he starts "selling" the fouls.

The Olarticoechea shot was certainly not a tap in. It was a great chance to score though. He was at the edge of the box, right in front of goal and fairly undisturbed. Personally I think it would have "made more sense" for that to be Argentina's goal rather than the one Cani scored. In any case, I never came down on Olarticoechea for missing it perse. Simply pointed out what it would be if he had gotten it in.

 

For that "hacking" from Brazil , I can testify as a Brazil fan ... Yes Brazil 90 were very rough on Maradona (rarely in tradition) ... only lesser than Dunga team in WC2010 LOL

 

Sorry for straying from the topic and for quoting a post so old, but that info is incorrect. The Paulista league has not always been the top regional league in Brazil. Actually, Rio de Janeiro used to be stronger and more respected. For example, in 1948, Conmebol and Colo-Colo organized the "Campeonato Sul-Americano de Campeões", which is considered the precursor to Copa Libertadores, inviting all the south-american national champions at the time. Since Brazil didn't have a national league yet, they called the champion from the Campeonato Carioca(Vasco da gama), which was the strongest and most known brazilian regional league back in the day.

Today the Paulista is undoubtedly the strongest regional league in Brazil, but it's not been always like this.

 

it's a YES and NO kinda thing
1- YES: Carrioca had more bigger teams so they were considered bigger or more important in general
2-NO Paulista of Pele time (50-70) was at least the same or higher in quality than Cariocca

 

Just for curiosity, Daily Mail produced a list about the 100 world cup heroes. Apart the english bias and the Maradona-Pelé duel, its interesting to note how the players status have great influence in any kind of lists. These lists serve mostly to show how high (Zidane, Platini, Ronaldinho, etc) or low (Schiaffino, Falcão, Kocsis etc) is the current status of some legends among the press. Anyway, I think a list about the best performances in a single tournament would be more focused on the performances itself and less influenced by these players status.

1- Diego Maradona
2- Pelé
3- Ronaldo
4- Zinedine Zidane
5- Franz Beckenbauer
6- Garrincha
7- Lothar Matthaus
8- Gerd Muller
9- Bobby Moore
10- Paolo Rossi
11- Johan Cruyff
12- Roberto Baggio
13- Bobby Charlton
14- Cafu
15- Paolo Maldini
16- Geoff Hurst
17- Miroslav Klose
18- Michel Platini
19- Just Fontaine
20- Romário
21- Eusebio
22- Jairzinho
23- Dino Zoff
24- Fabio Cannavaro
25- Mario Kempes
26- Giuseppe Meazza
27- Jurgen Klinsmann
28- Lilian Thuram
29- Andreas Brehme
30- Rivaldo
31- Uwe Seeler
32- Cubillas
33- Carlos Alberto
34- Gary Lineker
35- Roberto Rivelino
36- Roberto Carlos
37- Dunga
38- Paul Gascoigne
39- Zizinho
40- Gheorge Hagi
41- Paul Breitner
42- Ferenc Puskas
43- Roger Milla
44- Rummenigge
45- Daniel Passarella
46- Rudi Voller
47- Dennis Bergkamp
48- Gordon Banks
49- Grzegorz Lato
50- Lev Yashin
51- Gianluigi Buffon
52- David Villa
53- Zico
54- Giuseppe Bergomi
55- Oliver Kahn
56- Didi
57- Gabriel Batistuta
58- Ronaldinho
59- Zbigniew Boniek
60- Rob Rensenbrick
61- Hristo Stoichkov
62- Andres Iniesta
63- Salvatore Schillaci
64- Diego Forlan
65- Leônidas
66- Jans Ceulemans
67- Johan Neeskens
68- Michael Ballack
69- Marco Tardelli
70- Ruud Krol
71- Alessandro Altobelli
72- Michael Laudrup
73- Davor Suker
74- Preben Elkjaer
75- Marcel Desailly
76- Harald Schumacher
77- Jorge Valdano
78- Michael Owen
79- Johnny Rep
80- Ossie Ardiles
81- Iker Casillas
82- Fabien Barthez
83- Enzo Schifo
84- Carlos Valderrama
85- Careca
86- Guillermo Stabile
87- Kazimierz Deyna
88- Jose Nasazzi
89- Oleg Salenko
90- Emilio Butragueno
91- Sandor Kocsis
92- Didier Deschamps
93- Thomas Muller
94- Gerson
95- Tomas Brolin
96- Sócrates
97- Tomas Skuhravy
98- Alcides Ghiggia
99- Gerry Armstrong
100- Al-Owairan

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...1-Maradona-Pele-Zidane-Ronaldo-whos-No-1.html

 

I agree with Zidane ( too HIGH) , Platini at 18 very questionable if compared to Didi, Gerson, Zico ...
Ronaldinho at 58 was OK I think.

G Hurst, Lineker, Klose, Rossi, Baggio Canavaro Milla were all HIGH
Zizinho, Didi, Gerson, Zico, Rivaldo, Lato, Stoitchkov ... were all LOW.

Absent names in Tostao, Vava (all better than Lineker, G. Hurst, obviuosly ...)

 

Bruford and all

Ssince Bruford put Daily.uk list, I also list this Planetworldcup list
ONLY ONE common thing: ZIDANE and PLATINI are both HIGHLY regarded ??

http://www.planetworldcup.com/TOP10/players.html

WORLD CUP PLAYERS

The ranking below is compiled based on a survey held on this website in December 2010 where readers could submit their own Top 10 rankings of best World Cup players. We received several hundred lists and this is the total outcome.
--------------------------------------------------------
# Name Country World Cups Apps / Gls
--------------------------------------------------------
1 PELÉ BRA 58,62,66,70 14 / 12
2 MARADONA, Diego ARG 82,86,90,94 21 / 8
3 BECKENBAUER, Franz GER 66,70,74 18 / 5
4 RONALDO BRA 98,02,06 19 / 15
5 ZIDANE, Zinedine FRA 98,02,06 12 / 5
6 GARRINCHA BRA 58,62,66 12 / 5
7 MÜLLER, Gerd GER 70,74 13 / 14
8 CRUIJFF, Johan NED 74 7 / 3
9 PLATINI, Michel FRA 78,82,86 14 / 5
10 DIDI BRA 54,58,62 15 / 3
11 MOORE, Bobby ENG 62,66,70 14 / 0
12 MEAZZA, Giuseppe ITA 34,38 9 / 3
13 MATTHÄUS, Lothar GER 82,86,90,94,98 25 / 6
14 MALDINI, Paolo ITA 90,94,98,02 23 / 0
15 PUSKAS, Ferenc HUN/SPA 54,62 6 / 4
16 JAIRZINHO BRA 66,70,74 16 / 9
17 CHARLTON, Bobby ENG 62,66,70 14 / 4
18 ZOFF, Dino ITA 74,78,82 17 /-16
19 MONTI, Luis ARG/ITA 30,34 9 / 2
20 RIVALDO BRA 98,02 14 / 8
21 EUSEBIO POR 66 6 / 9
22 RUMMENIGGE, Karl-Heinz GER 78,82,86 19 / 9
23 BAGGIO, Roberto ITA 90,94,98 16 / 9
24 BANKS, Gordon ENG 66,70 9 / -4
25 LATO, Grzegorz POL 74,78,82 20 / 10
26 SCHIAFFINO, Juan URU 50,54 9 / 5
27 CAFU BRA 94,98,02,06 20 / 0
28 SEELER, Uwe GER 58,62,66,70 21 / 9
29 VAVA BRA 58,62 10 / 9
30 FONTAINE, Just FRA 58 6 / 13
31 SCIREA, Gaetano ITA 78,82,86 18 / 0
32 KEMPES, Mario ARG 74,78,82 18 / 6
33 PASSARELLA, Daniel ARG 78,82 12 / 3
34 XAVI SPA 02,06,10 14 / 0
35 VARELA, Obdulio URU 50,54 7 / 2
36 THURAM, Lilian FRA 98,02,06 16 / 2
37 OVERATH, Wolfgang GER 66,70,74 19 / 3
38 CUBILLAS, Teofilo PER 70,78,82 13 / 10
39 WALTER, Fritz GER 54,58 11 / 3
40 ROSSI, Paolo ITA 78,82 14 / 9
41 KLOSE, Miroslav GER 02,06,10 19 / 14
42 ROMARIO BRA 90,94 8 / 5
43 YASHIN, Lev SOV 58,62,66 13 /-18
44 KOCSIS, Sandor HUN 54 5 / 11
45 BARESI, Franco ITA 90,94 10 / 0
46 ZICO BRA 78,82,86 14 / 5
47 KLINSMANN, Jürgen GER 90,94,98 17 / 11
48 CANNAVARO, Fabio ITA 98,02,06,10 18 / 0
49 LINEKER, Gary ENG 86,90 12 / 10
50 KOPA, Raymond FRA 54,58 8 / 4
51 RIVELINO, Roberto BRA 70,74,78 15 / 6
52 BUFFON, Gianluigi ITA 02,06,10 12 / -8
53 DJALMA SANTOS BRA 54,58,62,66 12 / 1
54 VILLA, David SPA 06,10 11 / 8
55 BREHME, Andreas GER 86,90,94 16 / 4
56 DUNGA BRA 90,94,98 18 / 0
57 ROBERTO CARLOS BRA 98,02,06 17 / 1
58 BREITNER, Paul GER 74,82 14 / 4
59 NEESKENS, Johan NED 74,78 13 / 5
60 BONIEK, Zbigniew POL 78,82,86 16 / 6
61 NILTON SANTOS BRA 54,58,62 15 / 1
62 VÖLLER, Rudi GER 86,90,94 15 / 8
63 LEONIDAS BRA 34,38 5 / 8
64 BERGOMI, Giuseppe ITA 82,86,90,98 16 / 0
65 KROL, Ruud NED 74,78 14 / 1
66 DEYNA, Kazimierz POL 74,78 13 / 4
67 TARDELLI, Marco ITA 78,82 13 / 2
68 ARDILES, Osvaldo ARG 78,82 11 / 1
69 BERGKAMP, Dennis NED 94,98 10 / 6
70 MASOPUST, Josef CZE 58,62 10 / 1
71 BATISTUTA, Gabriel ARG 94,98,02 12 / 10
72 KAHN, Oliver GER 02,06 8 / -4
73 ADEMIR BRA 50 6 / 9
74 HURST, Geoff ENG 66,70 6 / 5
75 HENRY, Thierry FRA 98,02,06,10 17 / 6
76 HELLSTRÖM, Ronnie SWE 70,74,78 10 /-10
77 CEULEMANS, Jan BEL 82,86,90 16 / 4
78 HAGI, Gheorghe ROM 90,94,98 12 / 3
79 CABRINI, Antonio ITA 78,82,86 18 / 1
80 MILLA, Roger CMR 82,90,94 10 / 5
81 STOJKOVIC, Dragan YUG 90,98 9 / 3
82 FILLOL, Ubaldo ARG 74,78,82 13 /-12
83 PROSINECKI, Robert YUG/CRO 90,98,02 9 / 3
84 LAUDRUP, Michael DEN 86,98 9 / 2
85 RAHN, Helmut GER 54,58 10 / 10
86 MAZURKIEWICZ, Ladislao URU 66,70,74 13 /-16
87 SUKER, Davor CRO 98,02 8 / 6
88 BROLIN, Tomas SWE 90,94 10 / 4
89 NASAZZI, Jose URU 30 4 / 0
90 NEJEDLY, Oldrich CZE 34,38 6 / 7
91 RUGGERI, Oscar ARG 86,90,94 16 / 1
92 SKOGLUND, Lennart SWE 50,58 10 / 1
93 GIRESSE, Alain FRA 82,86 12 / 3
94 FORLAN, Diego URU 02,10 8 / 6
95 SCHNELLINGER, Karl-Heinz GER 58,62,66,70 17 / 1
96 DASAEV, Rinat SOV 82,86,90 9 /-11
97 STOICHKOV, Hristo BUL 94,98 10 / 6
98 BALLACK, Michael GER 02,06 11 / 3
99 FACCHETTI, Giacinto ITA 66,70,74 12 / 0
100 BURRUCHAGA, Jorge ARG 86,90 14 / 3

 

One could research the annual outcome of the "Torneio Rio v São Paulo" to get a better picture of which league was better:

http://www.rsssf.com/tablesr/riosplchamp.html

 

Not really. Many things you have to take into account before judging. For example, the importance each team gave to the tournament, where it was disputed(Back in the 40-50s, traveling was not as fast and viable as today, specially on a third world country), etc... There were even editions where no team from Rio de Janeiro participated. Even so, Rio has 10 titles. That's a lot.

A great example that you can't judge based on only one tournament is the Copa Libertadores. Brazilian teams gave way more importance to the regional and national leagues than Libertadores before the 90's. That's why so few have won that cup till them. Flamengo in the 80's was a hell of a team. Why has it won only one Libertadores?

 

I also noticed that in some editions, Brazil didn't registered a team or sent not the best team.
Especially in the 60s and 70s.
How much the Libertadores history would change?

Maybe, a good idea for a new thread!!!

 

From 1969-1970 onward Brazil received extra money as part of a deal. They were allowed to keep a higher percentage of gate receipts than the other countries (including Argentina).
Book I have says that 'numbers + surplus percentage' resulted into higher income as Argentina + Uruguay + Peru + Chile combined (from the Copa Libertadores that is).

 

I do not necessary rate them at ONE particular WC or few games ... overall Tostao and Vava were betetr player in talent (overall) then Lineker. I am not too sure if Lineker was even betetr than say Shearer or Owen ... let along Tostao (or arguably Vava)

Now if you really want to dig in Lineker's goals at WC86?
Besides his hat trick vs Poland, he was MIA in first two games (where England lost and tied) he then got a brace vs Paraguay = 5goals/2games in a 6goals to NIL win games ...
NOT THAT IMPRESSIVE.

It was like many younger fans were so IMPRESSED with Messi/CR7 of 50-60goals scored in liga whole season, but they FORGOT that many of them were from thrashing games of 4 to 6goals vs opponent - much less meaning