Would Argentina have won the 1986 World Cup if Pele in place of Maradona?

I understand now. It does makes sense.

 

This is exactly what Maldini did at WC94.

 

That's a very good notice.

That's why I often called Maldini among the very "hyped" DF despite of his great quality, skills and longevity ...
I remember I also put (a while back):
1- as a FULL BACK there is not much difference in quality between Maldini and Thuram. Maldini had better consistency and longevity.
2- as a CB *in both later years of career: I felt Thuram was more solid and smarter in in defensive playing style than Maldini. Like you pointed out, more often we could see some "desperate moment" of Maldini in defensive zone, like chasing, holding, and pulling shirt ... but I can not see that in Thuram.

 

Well in term of "DF GOD" there might be one, or arguably so - Beckenbauer
Many (younger fans) put Maldini right behind him is "BEYOND" my understanding. There are quite a few should or would be better choice. I woudl say Maldini would "barely make" as TOP5 best DF all time

 

Thuram was a 'natural' CB. He was forced to play RB because there was no one else to fill the gap after Angloma retired and above all because Desailly already had the CB spot but he said many times that he didn't like and didn't feel confortable to play at that position.

 

Comparing Maldini 94 to Desailly 98 :

Maldini played more minutes (690 vs 662), made more passes (355 vs 267), won more duels (50 vs 46 but he fact Maldini played 28 minutes more evens that), made more successfull tackles (18 vs 15), recovered more balls (68 vs 59), had a better fouls won / fouls conceded ratio (12/9 vs 7/6) and created more chances (5 vs 0).

Desailly had a better % of successfull passes overall (90.6 % vs 78.6 %) and in the opposite half (81 % vs 69.8 %), lost less duels (20 vs 38), had a better duels won / duels lost ratio (46/20 vs 50/38), won more aerial duels (17 vs 7), lost less aerial duels (4 vs 8) and had a better aerial duels won / aerial duels lost (17/4 vs 7/8), lost less tackles (2 vs 8) and had a better tackles won / tackles lost ratio (15 / 2 vs 18 /8), made more clearances (50 vs 38), shot blocks (6 vs 2) and interceptions (38 vs 29).

It's very unclear Maldini has the edge here again.

 

I know that was his favorite to be CB. But facts said Thuram was very successful in his best form as a RB for both clubs (Parma and Juve) and Country (france 98-2002)

 

You're right in term of the STATS number and especially about duel won, tackles, ariel won ...

But for the pass % , it maybe a bit unfair for Maldini since France 98 had much better midfield than Italy 94 to make Desailly look better in passing % ...

For example, like I mention many times, the Spain tikitaka looked "awesome" and retained a great deal in "passing %" of STATS, but they also OWE to that stats by the fact tehy were all great individuals playing for same team, same leagues over years! So it's just a bit "EASIER" for them .... just like it made Desailly playing with passing "easier" than a Maldini with his midfield.

 

Maldini has clearly the edge in carrying the defense, his performance is far greater than Thuram's, it's not even worthy of a comparison anywhere else except apparently in France. Then again, this is the same country that lauded the Maginot line as a piece of defensive genius

 

Now let's see the reality rather than your "own wordings in praise"

-------------------------- Maldini 94 ----------- Thuram 98
Duel won ........................50 ..............................57
Duel lost ..........................38...............................19
Ariel duel won.................7.................................11
Ariel duel lost .................8..................................0
Recoveries......................68.................................43
Tackles won %..............76.2...............................79
Clearance ......................38..................................26
Interception..................12...................................9
fouls conceded ..............9...................................3

Thuram won 5 /4 of Maldini in DF

Now in Attack, Thuram clearly dominated in all 4 categories

Goals-------------------0 -----------------------2
Chances create---------5------------------------7
Successful cross--------2------------------------7
Shots-------------------4------------------------7

 

The stats don't show the context of their play, the situations in which they faced many of these duels. I re-watched all of Italy's match in the summer of 94 after I noticed no one could take on Maldini successfully, and he did not lose any direct duels. Houghton got past him once but Maldini backtracked to take the ball away from him, the other time it could count was when Maldini, running back to cover for the left back, did not get a clean clearance on a header and Cafu took it sprinting past him, however Maldini pressured back to force Cafu into a harmless cross. Other than those two situations, noone could take on Maldini one on one at WC94. Your defensive stats are either incorrect or count as lost duels situations that are broader to blame the particular defender. I also remember in WC98 the Paraguayan attack giving fits to the French defense, in particular towards the end of regulation Cardozo incredibly missing a one on one with Barthez after Acuna knifed through the French defense. Benitez also looked at times unstoppable but again the impotent Cardozo f'd up his efforts.

PS: Looking at some of other stats, Italy did not play for crossess. Other than the corner kick header by D Baggio against Norway, all of their goals were concoted from the middle - usually by Baggio's solo improvisations, or Donadoni and Albertini creating something.

 

A compilation of Pelé his hat-trick performance against France in 1963:

 

Let's hear opinion from the Argentina Legendary Coach:

===============================================================
MENOTTI DA SU OPINIÓN SOBRE EL FUTURO DEL JOVEN BRASILEÑO
"Si Neymar quiere ser CR7, que vaya al Madrid; si quiere ser Messi, al Barça"

• "El más grande fue Pelé: es una mezcla de Di Stéfano, Maradona, Cruyff y Leo Messi"

10/01/12 -16:48.

César Luis Menotti pasó por los micrófonos de 'Planeta América' de Radio MARCA y se mojó a la hora de elegir al mejor futbolista de la historia: "El más grande que vi en mi vida fue Pelé. Una mezcla de Di Stéfano, Maradona, Cruyff, Messi, metido en un jugador".
El técnico argentino habló de muchas cosas en el programa del Mono Montoya, entre ellas de Neymar: "Si quiere ser CR7, que vaya al Madrid. Si quiere ser como Messi, debería fichar por el Barça".
Menotti también mandó un mensajito a Cristiano Ronaldo: "Dicen cosas que me hacen risa. Dicen que es el más lindo... ¡Y qué más da! Los jugadores no tienes q ser lindos".
"El Betis y el Cádiz son dos equipos a los que me gustaría haber entrenado"
A la hora de hablar de Guardiola y Mourinho quedan claras sus preferencias: "En teatros como el del Bernabéu se necesita un técnico que dirija de smoking". De Pep tiene claro que seguirá muchos años en el Barça: "A Guardiola no le crean, no le van a dejarse ir ni sus jugadores ni su gente. Yo le dije que se quedara de por vida".
Una vez más, Menotti mostró su admiración por el Barça: "En el juego nunca pierde el Barcelona. En el resultado puede, pero nunca en el juego".
Para acabar, el 'Flaco' mostró su deseo de entrenar: "¿Que si aún tengo ganas de ser entrenador? Pregúntale a Paco de Lucía si quiere tocar la guitarra". Y dejó una sorpresa final al decir que "el Betis y el Cádiz son dos equipos a los que me gustaría haber entrenado".

================================================================

In brief,
when asked of his wisdom about the "media rumor" that Is Messi the greatest a ka Pele and Maradona?
Menotti: "to me Pele is the greatest player of all time. He was a force in combination of a Di Stefano, a Cruijff, a Maradona and a Messi, all in one player"

when asked, what about Neymar, CR7 with Messi now?
Menotti: "If one wants to be a Messi, go play for Barca now, and if he wants to be a CR7, then go play for Real Madrid!"

when asked, what about Pep's genius behind this Barca's tikitaka?
Menotti: "The last time I knew about football with passing the balls that was with Cruijff's Barca in 90s and Pep was just a player. Even (before that) I did make Barca 80's playing possession with Maradona as center false #9 (like Messi now) and they were very much critisized and forced to change "

when asked, what about Inter of Mourinho 09 (vs this Barca)?
Menotti: "Well Inter indeed won the trebble, but I know Mourinho type, among those who always thinks of "winning " is everything and failure is not their fault- they are around !"

 

The difference of Maradona at WC86 to Pele (if he would ever be there)>


La foto che dimostra il gol realizzato da Maradona grazie alla "Mano di Dio"



Look close, Maradona used his hand as advantage to overcome the GK who barely lifted up (undersitame Maradona's header???)

Pele could LIFT UP higher tahn any GK even with his hands down ... LOL

 

Pele would have never scored the second goal that Maradona did.

 

Wrongly go watch Pele dribbled passed 4 players and scored at WC62 ... it was just shorter distance though ..

 

Nowhere near the same class of Maradona's against England or Belgium.

 

https://twitter.com/TimesSport/status/395493849658687489/photo/1/large

 

Cheers to my favourite Germany lover!

"Happy Birthday to Diego Maradona, the fourth best player ever !"
https://twitter.com/ademir2z/status/395504890820456448

 

You accused me of having an agenda (while you have ofc clearly possess a consistent one, for ex. a clear anti Dutch agenda), so I had to come back to this.
In what way one wants to turn it, the condensed version is that Maradona is ranked 4th of all time, with a few ifs and buts. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with forming own ideas but no need to turn around it ("on a different day..."; or that Puskas and Stefano are only ranked 2nd and 3rd because usually they are placed at the bottom, which is clearly not the real excuse).
Good luck with erecting some more smoke screens.

 

With all due respect, and I don't see it as an accusation, but there have been other ones who inferred certain biases on your part. I have never seen people observing an bias against Brazil, Spain, Italy or Germany. But I have seen once in a while the very same thought passing by; statements showing a slight bias against Argentina and the Netherlands (to name a few).

But this is besides the point. In contrast, in between the confinements of this thread I see a solid tendency to rank Maradona lower than two, as well as a tendency to place negative comments against certain legends (while nothing but praise for other ones: Pelé Beckenbauer and Puskas in particular). That is all fine, and I have (personally) also applauded others for basing views on what they see rather than copy-paste the consensus. But what like I said, if I'm accused of an agenda then I need to come back to this subject. Putting at fourth is anyway lower as the (grown) consensus, and stating this at the birthday of a player is certainly thought provoking. It is like saying on Churchill his birthday: 'Hail to the sixth best politician of the 20th century', or something like that.

Anyway, instead of focusing where a player should be placed, it is rather more interesting and to the point to ask for the boxes that Pelé 'ticks' (to use your own words). Boxes that Maradona do not tick, or lesser of them (with Puskas ticking different boxes, that Pelé doesn't do; I don't think btw that Puskas excelled at two different positions but anyway).