Wow. This thread is the gift that keeps on giving. And to address the original topic of the thread, let me just reiterate one more time the utter and absolute contempt I have for Chiang Kai-Shek.
Oh, yeah, I guess we can't let a page go without an obligatory cheap shot. The Dutch war effort might get a free pass for thinking that the Germans would do what they did in the First World War (which is debatable, but let's play along with johan for a minute). It doesn't get one for letting the Japanese roll over the East Indies.
Sorry, the Japanese horrors inflicted on the Indonesians were merely "an inconvience". Now the Russians, they really understand the meaning of suffering.
Now that's a revealing and sad case of the my-peoples-fate-counts-the-rest-is-just-relative brand of thinking. I'd let it slip if I hadn't seen traces of it in some of your other posts. You do realize it's no consolation whatsoever for anyone who died of hunger in that nasty winter, to know that their nation's occupation was only a mild one according to your fav historybook. It doesn't make them any less dead or anything. Individuals have the ability to suffer and die. Nations, like circles, numbers and colours lack that ability. It's a simple concept, but surprisingly hard to grasp for some people. But you can make an effort. Mentioning the fate of the dutch jews by no means gives you the moral weight you think it does. It's pretty tasteless instead. Their generation knows what a war is like. Your experience with war on the other hand is limited to playing warcraft and doing a thorough study of Jane's niftiest WW2 battles. Once you realize that, you can make any tasteless, rotten joke you want, just like all the other pampered, clueless, internet-age collegekids. But when you make an effort to come across as someone who's been around and who knows his shit, and whose family's history earns him the credit to be condescending about other people's fates, you deserve a pretty solid kick in the butt.
Again the fact that you can't see the difference between you belittling the deaths of thousands of Dutch people and me criticising some American posters for their ignorance, makes me seriously doubt your emotional and moral intelligence. You admit yourself that you don't think what you said was personal. Well I did take it personally, as most Dutch people would. I pointed this out to you a number of times but you either don't get that or chose not to care. There is no truth only perception Nicephoras; if you're indeed the intellectual you make out to be, you should know that. How bad Dutch suffering was in the greater scheme of things is completely irrelevant to the Dutch who went through it. If you in turn take me calling some Americans ignorant personally, then I apologise, even though you know as well as I do that it is a fact that many Americans think their army liberated Holland. The irony of all of this is, of course, that even some Dutch people think the Americans liberated them, and it's even an argument for the Dutch pro-war on Iraq lobby (we must help them out of gratitude type of thing). I have no problem ridiculing Dutch idiots either.
I have no problem whatsoever with people criticising the Dutch army, not in Europe and not in Indonesia either. What I would have a problem with is if you in the manner of Nicephoras would say something like 'the worst thing that happened to the Dutch in Asia was that they were imprisoned in Japanese camps'.
During that time, we didn't need to participate in WWII, but the Japanese attacked us and the Germans declared won upon us a day after the Pearl Harbor attack.
That is absolute nonsence....... the Brtish didn't think continental Europeans were cowards!!! we thought/think Italians were cowards (because they were)
And while the English really suffered working on the Thailand-Birma railways, the Dutch were actually holidaying there, upon the invitation of the lovely Japanese.
The Germans only did what they were asked, they're not to blame. The Dutch had been welcoming Jewish refugees since the 16th century but by 1939 decided they wanted rid of them, and didn't want to get their hands dirty so instead invited the Germans to do it for them. How the Dutch partied in the streets of Amsterdam with their lovely German brothers when they finally arrived!
Way to prove your point there, johan buddy. No, brilliant. I mean, to belittle the fate of the Jews in WW2 and thereby make the argument that its not OK to insult cultures is brilliant. Simply brilliant.
By the way, can I also point out to you that the Dutch jews overall felt Dutch first and Jewish second (see a number of autobiographies, see Anne Frank's comments on the subject, see what Primo Levi made of the Dutch jews arriving at concentration camps). You make it seem like they were a separate community living in Holland while they were in fact fully integrated into Dutch society.
Johan, I would have thought you'd have learnt by now that regardless of whether you're absolutely right or completely wrong, you can never win an argument with Nice. He's a lawyer. He just loves arguing. And you take the bait so well, every time.
I imagine that if Joost van den Vondel, Erasmus, Leeghwater, and William of Orange himself would speak to you from their graves and along with half of the living adult Dutch population would point out to you that they considered your posts on the subject tasteless, you'd still be calling them stupid and lacking in intelligence. [waits for Nicephoras to point out that Van den Vondel, Erasmus, leeghwater and William of Orange were historically insignificant]
I love arguing too and I'm not one for letting pompous lawyers get their own way! I'm guessing far too many people agreed with him when he was growing up. He's got mummy's boy written all over him.
Ceaser, one is a lawyer and the other is Dutch what do you expect other than name calling and mudslinging?
I haven't made anything seem anything. I haven't talked about the Dutch Jews. You have. I mentioned them in a brief aside. You seem to have gotten your panties in a bunch about this. Didn't you say you were going to end this argument?
Ahhh, here's the difference between us, johan. I haven't called all the Ducth stupid. Just a few of them. Who aren't stupid because they're Dutch. They're stupid because they're stupid.