World Cup legends/heroes in history by variety of sources

Germano, aged 33, only played in one game. He was not a regular. Coluna (originally a striker and inside-forward too by the way!) and the other four Benfica forwards were indeed regulars.

Not to bitch on you, but it would help to get these things right.

 

Yes true, but has to be noted Rossi had a shorter time. He was banned until 28/04/1982, and played his first actual game on 02/05/1982. Excluding training matches, he had four games in his legs when the WC started; three Serie A games and one NT friendly.
Ronaldo had a bit more time and also played more games (returned 27 March 2002 vs Yugoslavia; even before he returned for Internazionale which actually surprised a few people).

 

So he was not a regular.

And apparently dropping six Benfica players in the same team didn't mean that no unforgivable mistakes could be made.

Germano was not totally fit by the way.

That's what I said: the forward line was from Benfica, plus Coluna (who was originally also a striker or inside-forward but became a half-back later on in his career).

Yes, but very unusual ones. The latter had about as many assists as goals in his career. Don't know about the first one.

Zico was a FW yes. Zizinho? I recently asked a question about this. Apparently he was always a FW.
Didi was a forward early on in his career, but by the late 50s he had made the switch to his iconic midfield role. Surely.

EDIT: I'm now just thinking about it; in Anderson and Sally their 'Numbers Game' book there is a plausible story about 'David vs Goliath'. About how Goliath define the rules by which the game ought to be played and that David should try to circumvent/reinterpret the rules, which is not without risk. If you like, you can apply this to Eusebio's Portugal.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/05/11/090511fa_fact_gladwell?currentPage=all

 

I'll make now a biased remark but after discussion of yesterday on the telly I remembered how Sneijder was on a hot streak in 2010.

Group stage against Denmark 2:0 1 pre-assist
The second goal was a pre-assist by Sneijder (shot on post)

2:18

Group stage against Japan 1:0 1 goal

Group stage against Cameroon 2:1 1 pre-assist
Winning goal pre-assisted by Sneijder

At 3:33 - sorry for the bad quality, doesn't really show the weight of the pass. Robben initially fails to control the ball. (shot on post)

EDIT:

1:06

Round 16 vs Slovakia 2:1 1 assist + 1 goal


Quarter-final vs Brazil 2:1 2 goals

Semi-final vs Uruguay 3:2 1 goal and 1 pre-assist (the other goal without involvement was Van Bronckhorst his wonder strike)

And in the final he provided two big chances to Robben.


It was maybe not pretty but Sneijder almost made it happen. He's (including pre-assists) directly involved at 9 of the 12 goals (on two occasions it could've been an assist if not squandered on the post).


And for once I say: Ruud Gullit
http://espnfc.com/world-cup/columns/story?id=736868&cc=5739&ver=global

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...uud-gullit-Forget-sexy-football-time-win.html

 

I think Sneijder would be a reasonable inclusion in a top 100, and could enhance that argument in the summer even. I feel like in some ways he played just as well or better in Euro 08 and then again arguably in 2012 but in terms of numbers his end product was better in 2010. Certainly whenever I saw him play for Inter he seemed to play well in the season before the WC (away at Chelsea especially for example). His chances created stats in a struggling Dutch team were good in 2012 and in 2008 he was quite dynamic as were the team generally and he scored a peach of a goal. But yeah he could be included by some people I'm sure already (people might or might not prefer to include him rather than Iniesta I suppose...or Forlan, Thomas Muller were at the top of their game in 2010 I suppose - Forlan had only a nice volleyed goal in previous WC's to enhance his case IIRC wheras C.Ronaldo had a bit more but didn't have as good a WC as Forlan in 2010 I'd think it's fair too say).

And probably I like Cruyff's take on the style of play if I'm honest. But it is easy to say that when it's not your nation. I'd want England to win beautiful (or lets say watchable/fair) ideally but if they are in the final somehow then perhaps a scrappy 1-0 will not seem so dull on the day of the match! Moreso, personally (not saying every fan would agree although there is a tradition/nostalgia just like in Holland's case) if Forest win something big again I'd like it to be playing beautiful/pure football and I would like to see the Dutch do it like that sometime too (would like them to win a WC though certainly, though would be surprised if they did it this year I think).

 

Good reply. Regardless of the 'win ugly' debate I just wanted to post his numbers (in comp. with the total amount of scored goals). I.e. the manager made him important (too important if you want to play a nice style?) but he delivered back then.
I know we also talked about the 'win ugly' before, and like I said, I have some mixed feelings about that. I also know from public surveys and polls that the majority wasn't happy with the football, but on the other hand the majority was also not happy with how media and opinion makers abroad saw it (feeling that Netherlands are held to different standards as other countries with their, as example, Materazzis and Nestas; the popularity of Spain in Netherlands, and their manners, is also clearly lukewarm and mixed at many times - Busquets is certainly very unpopular!). In a way I go along with this. And you're right Cruijff was certainly not happy; he's always so convinced about his own righteousness that he even didn't say 'congratulations, you made the final', but used the occasion to spread some acid around.

But yeah, after seeing that on telly yesterday I just realized how good Sneijder his end-product ('efficiency') was. I suppose.

 

@Puck, Nesta was not a brute, in fact, he had loads of skill and could come ahead of his line playing with the ball.

 

The one doesn't exclude the other. At Lazio he was quite 'nasty' at times (ask Ronaldo!), more so than Baresi for example. Nesta was probably the best Italian central defender since Baresi.

But maybe Cannavaro is a better example of a fierce and ruthless defender. Definitely Materazzi.

 

whats the criteria rating helmut rahn so low?? after reading your personal list...
kopa ranked 13 and rahn 80???
rahn (no striker9..)has scored in 10 wc games 10 goals..inclusive 2 goals,1 assist (or presassist) in the final 1954 against the tournament favorite hungary..

 

It's more difficult for those earlier WC's even though we do have some good footage. I knew that Kopa had had a fantastic WC in 1958 though, and was both the main French playmaker and the source of many assists including several to top scorer Fontaine. I also know that (and can see and understand why this is the case) he's often included in descriptions of the very best players of the 50's as well as among the 100 or even 50 best all-time players. And I think his 1958 WC is said to be him at his best generally speaking.

Obviously I can watch more of Kopa's highlights from 1958 than Rahn's from 1954 and can see the semi-final in full wheras only 40 minutes of highlights for the 1954 Final, so I am more familiar with his play and therefore more confident about his overall quality. Rahn struck me as a player who could come up with something special/unstoppable from what I saw, but probably not with the general class/consistent skill of Kopa. I have seen some clips of Rahn from 1958 and he scores a great goal from near the goal-line (some similarities to Hamrin's vs Germany) and I think that overall his WC was said to be at least as good as in 1954? Though in 1954 as you say he made the key contributions in the final game itself. Was it Dr Becker I read had included him in his Team A for the 1958 tournament? I remember seeing a little bit of Kopa in 1954 in highlight form but mainly his position was due to his legendary 1958 tournament in the year he won the Ballon D'or. It's only an approximation of course, but I felt him and Fontaine could each have one of the top 10 or 12 individual tournaments when I thought about it. You'd think maybe not?, or would you feel one or both of Rahn's tournaments could be viewed similarly?

 

The criteria is that all French players have naturally given the best individual WC performance of all time in each respective position. Here is the all-time WC team by individual performance:

Bats (WC86)
Thuram (WC98)---Desailly (WC98)---Tressor (WC82)---Amoros (WC82)
Tigana (WC86)---Giresse (WC82)---Platini (WC86)---Zidane (WC06)
Henry (WC06)---Anelka (WC10)

Subs: Blanc (WC98), Maradona (WC86)

 

Fine. You finally learnt your lesson . But Kopa should obviously be picked instead of Maradona.

 

Actually, I want to put another French player in my list - Roger Piantoni. From the highlights and tournament descriptions it's clear he played excellently and we can see his goals and assists (he got a few - not every French assist is 100% clear but some of his are definite). Well, if I took out double World Cup Brazilian right-back Jorginho plus a couple of goalies I could add Djalma Santos (Brazilian right back who is legendary but didn't play in every game every time for whatever reason), Carlos Alberto (had legendary moments and generally good tournament in 1970 - not only 'the goal' but some nice defending, skills, passing and the pass to Jairzinho pre Pele-Banks moment) and Piantoni indeed!

Of course it's very hard to settle on 100 names in reality.

 

He forgot Pascal Chimbonda as well

 

I've thought about it and I am going to alter (only once) my list. Those 3 all crossed my mind originally but I suppose I'd thought Piantoni and Carlos Alberto only had one cup and Djalma Santos missed some games. I think it's better with them in though, and actually it'll be Vieira, B.Laudrup (also one WC, and did do very well but not more so than Piantoni I think on reflection) and Seeler (included due to several WC's and good contributions from his first one in 1958 to his header vs England in 1970, but am favouring the best single WC's) who I'm taking out. I'm actually re-jigging to move Suker down (like B.Laudrup did really well in one WC in 1998 though in some aspects IMO both were past their very best, albeit that was the stage they shone on in front of the world the most I suppose and both were maybe at their most efficient if not most spectacular; also as with Seeler there are many goalscorers who did well and some with a lot of goals that I couldn't squeeze in so Suker can drop a bit too) and Burruchaga stays in due mainly to his 1986 displays but slips down very slightly. Nilton Santos goes up and I've slotted Djalma into his original slot.

And I am moving Rahn up a little bit on reflection (also Kopa will slip but only one place lol, as I thought Rossi with his 1978 to add to his 1982 could trump Kopa's brilliance in 1958 and a lesser WC in 1954 as far as I understand)
So 51-100 is now:
51 - Gaetano Scirea (Italy - 1978, 1982, 1986)
52 - Florian Albert (Hungary - 1962, 1966)
53 - Lilian Thuram (France - 1998, 2002, 2006)
54 - Cafu (Brazil - 1994, 1998, 2002, 2006)
55 - Zbigniew Boniek (Poland - 1978, 1982, 1986)
56 - Gerson (Brazil - 1966, 1970)
57 - Falcao (Brazil - 1982)
58 - Obdulio Varela (Uruguay - 1950, 1954)
59 - Paul Gascoigne (England - 1990)
60 - Josef Masopust (Czechoslovakia - 1958, 1962)
61 - Claudio Caniggia (Argentina - 1990, 1994)
62 - Jozsef Bozsik (Hungary - 1954, 1958)
63 - Ferenc Puskas (Hungary/Spain - 1954, 1962)
64 - Nandor Hidegkuti (Hungary - 1954, 1958)
65 - Alain Giresse (France - 1982, 1986)
66 - Rivelino (Brazil - 1970, 1974, 1978)
67 - Igor Belanov (Soviet Union - 1986)
68 - Leonidas (Brazil - 1938)
69 - Karl-Heinz Rummenigge (Germany - 1978, 1982, 1986)
70 - Helmut Rahn (W.Germany - 1954, 1958)
71 - Jan Ceulemans (Belgium - 1982, 1986, 1990)
72 - Silvio Piola (Italy - 1938)
73 - Rinat Dasaev (Soviet Union - 1982, 1986)
74 - Tomas Brolin (Sweden - 1990, 1994)
75 - Nils Liedholm (Sweden - 1958)
76 - Ubaldo Fillol (Argentina - 1978, 1982)
77 - Fabio Cannavaro (Italy - 1998, 2002, 2006)
78 - Kurt Hamrin (Sweden - 1958)
79 - Ronaldinho (Brazil - 2002, 2006)
80 - Hristo Stoichkov (Bulgaria - 1994, 1998)
81 - Zoltan Czibor (Hungary - 1954)
82 - Nilton Santos (Brazil - 1950, 1954, 1958, 1962)
83 - Ferenc Bene (Hungary - 1966)
84 - Dragan Stojkovic (Yugoslavia - 1990, 1998)
85 - Zizinho (Brazil - 1950)
86 - Bebeto (Brazil - 1990, 1994, 1998)
87 - Djalma Santos (Brazil - 1954, 1958, 1962, 1966)
88 - Zito (Brazil - 1958, 1962, 1966)
89 - Enzo Scifo (Belgium - 1986, 1990, 1994, 1998)
90 - Andres Iniesta (Spain - 2006, 2010)
91 - Maxime Bossis (France - 1978, 1982, 1986)
92 - Gianni Rivera (Italy - 1962, 1966, 1970, 1974)
93 - Gyula Grosics (Hungary - 1954, 1958, 1962)
94 - Michel Preud'homme (Belgium - 1990, 1994)
95 - Gilmar (Brazil - 1958, 1962, 1966)
96 - Davor Suker (Croatia - 1998)
97 - Roger Piantoni (France - 1958)
98 - Jorginho (Brazil - 1990, 1994)
99 - Jorge Burruchaga (Argentina - 1986, 1990)
100 - Carlos Alberto (Brazil - 1970).

Highlights/goals for France 98 are on Youtube and I was re-watching some yesterday. Enjoyable but like I say not entirely easy to identify all the assits for Kopa and Piantoni for sure. Fontaine didn't only score goals btw - at 3:07 here he assists Kopa great improvised finish for example:

Djalma did play 12 games over the WC's so I think that's plenty and his stand-out display is said to be this in the 1958 Final:

Carlos Alberto seems an obvious inclusion as a World Cup legend. As well as finishing the legendary goal in the final he also started the move for the Jairzinho goal against England:

Not related to the WC, but I did notice some nice/interesting clips from his time with Pele in US soccer at the end of this video, playing as CB/sweeper:

(6:40 onwards)

 

So switching Kopa and Rossi in my top 50 - not sure if others are voting or James is compiling a Big Soccer version but this would be my final vote now!

50 - Rivaldo (Brazil - 1998, 2002)
49 - Gyorgy Sarosi (Hungary - 1934, 1938)
48 - Fritz Walter (W.Germany - 1954, 1958)
47 - Michel Platini (France - 1978, 1982, 1986)
46 - Osvaldo Ardiles (Argentina - 1978, 1982)
45 - Gordon Banks (England - 1966, 1970)
44 - Jean Tigana (France - 1982, 1986)
43 - Roger Milla (Cameroon - 1982, 1990, 1994)
42 - Gzregorz Lato (Poland - 1974, 1978, 1982)
41 - Ademir Marques de Menezes (Brazil - 1950)
40 - Johan Neeskens (Netherlands - 1974, 1978)
39 - Socrates (Brazil - 1982, 1986)
38 - Johnny Rep (Netherlands - 1974, 1978)
37 - Rob Rensenbrink (Netherlands - 1974, 1978)
36 - Sandor Kocsis (Hungary - 1954)
35 - Preben Elkjaer (Denmark - 1986)
34 - Jurgen Klinsmann (Germany - 1990, 1994, 1998)
33 - Gary Lineker (England - 1986, 1990)
32 - Teofilo Cubillas (Peru - 1970, 1978, 1982)
31 - Kazimierz Deyna (Poland - 1974, 1978)
30 - Gheorghe Hagi (Romania - 1990, 1994, 1998)
29 - Pierre Littbarski (Germany - 1982, 1986, 1990)
28 - Dennis Bergkamp (Netherlands - 1994, 1998)
27 - Giussepe Meazza (Italy - 1934, 1938)
26 - Zico (Brazil - 1978, 1982, 1986)
25 - Romario (Brazil - 1990, 1994)
24 - Lothar Matthaus (Germany - 1982, 1986, 1990, 1994)
23 - Paolo Maldini (Italy - 1990, 1994, 1998, 2002)
22 - Franco Baresi (Italy - 1990, 1994)
21 - Bobby Charlton (England - 1962, 1966, 1970)
20 - Michael Laudrup (Denmark - 1986, 1998)
19 - Juan Schiaffino (Uruguay - 1950, 1954)
18 - Ruud Krol (Netherlands - 1974, 1978)
17 - Mario Kempes (Argentina - 1974, 1978, 1982)
16 - Just Fontaine (France - 1958)
15 - Gerd Muller (W.Germany - 1970, 1974)
14 - Raymond Kopa (France - 1954, 1958)
13 - Paolo Rossi (Italy - 1978, 1982)
12 - Ronaldo (Brazil - 1998, 2002, 2006)
11 - Roberto Baggio (Italy - 1990, 1994, 1998)
10 - Didi (Brazil - 1954, 1958, 1962)
9 - Bobby Moore (England - 1962, 1966, 1970)
8 - Eusebio (Portugal - 1966)
7 - Jairzinho (Brazil - 1966, 1970, 1974)
6 - Zinedine Zidane (France - 1998, 2002, 2006)
5 - Franz Beckenbauer (W.Germany - 1966, 1970, 1974)
4 - Garrincha (Brazil - 1958, 1962, 1966)
3 - Johan Cruyff (Netherlands - 1974)
2 - Diego Maradona (Argentina - 1982, 1986, 1990, 1994)
1 - Pele (Brazil - 1958, 1962, 1966, 1970).