Accidentally repped lol, but thought it might be offensive to take it away again! And I could have added an extra rep earlier for the analysis anyway. Plus that is a good observation about wing-backs - I might be getting mixed-up or mistaken and you'll know the answer to this - would that apply to Briegel in 1986? I would say if the players were normally full-backs then count them as defenders but Briegel also played in midfield eg for Verona didn't he? I think the wing-back formations came later to English football, but I seem to recall some were described as 5-3-2 in the early days and it was normally the tactic to play full-backs in those roles. England also played a bit with a sweeper in Italia '90 and I'd tend to call that a 1-4-3-2 with Pearce and Parker as defenders. In Euro '96 when they played 3 defenders though, they played for example Anderton and McManaman in the wide positions but by nature and actual play on the pitch they would be midfielders definately (they weren't actually described as wing-backs anyway though - it was an attacking formation adjusted from Dutch 3 at the back formations). But then we'd have Cafu and Roberto Carlos in 2002 - definately in a 3-4-2-1 or whatever we call it (with 3 defenders really) but they did still get back into defence a lot I guess and are full-backs rather than midfielders or wingers if they play in a 4 man defence system. I'm sure Belanov is correctly placed as a forward (but it could be argued he wasn't really a striker even in that World Cup) but not quite so sure about Francescoli. I do think he played more as a forward in that phase of his career though, including when he played in Argentina and as evidenced by the classification of Zico, South Americans don't require midfielders to be CM's so if he was described as a forward he would be generally playing high up the pitch - he did score a lot of goals in Argentina but that doesn't prove anything necessarily. I'm sure ASF or someone could give us a better idea though. I do think he was a player that played in different roles in his career and that you'd be right that sometimes he was very much a midfield maestro - I'm really no expert at all on him but thought I'd share my thoughts - in terms of observations from the World Cup itself I'd say from what I saw of the Denmark-Uruguay game that forward would be more suitable than midfielder though. I did notice PlanetWorldCup does list him as a midfielder however. But I do think if Maradona is a forward in that World Cup then so is Francescoli probably and probably moreso than Maradona (and Laudrup probably should be too if Maradona is as I suggested before).
The whole heatmap & position stuff is only included in the version you need to pay for though. Maybe they didn't use it for their free information for whatever reason.
Ok then. When I start I'll have Francescoli as a midfielder, Belanov as a forward, Briegel as a midfielder, Maradona and Laudrup as forwards, Junior as midfielders. Any objections?
Just in case you were going with my impression for Francescoli (someone else confirmed midfielder would be better for 1990 but hasn't commented on 1986 yet) - I did think forward was better for him but wasn't 100% about it. So if I was confusing with my opinion for him I apologise and I thought I'd better clarify with this post - if you're over-ruling me that's no problem though of course.
I have read Pipiolo's remark on Francescoli in 1990 in the other thread and your conclusions. Hence I thought "midfielder" might be alright for him. Maradona/Laudrup - unless someone states that both definitely were midfielders I'll leave them in the forwards category. Personally, I have no opinion on that. They are "hybrid" players thus both categories would do. I'll wait until tomorrow, perhaps MSioux75 or ChaChaFut might clarify the Francescoli matter.
Yeah, good call to wait maybe but I don't mind if you eventually do go with midfielder (I still get the feeling maybe foward was more accurate though for 1986 especially if "hybrid" Maradona and Laudrup are forwards). This page is perhaps worth a look (it does have a comment saying that in those days for River Plate he played in attack but sometimes for Uruguay deeper - however that could be referring to 1987 onwards I'm not sure - it could be the poster was remembering games outside of the scope of the period chosen 1984-86 but maybe he was also referring to games in it ): http://pesstatsdatabase.com/viewtopic.php?p=4289 Not sure Francescoli in 1986 will be among the top rated actually anyway, but maybe some of his stats will be surprsingly good (not surprising for his talent, but I don't think he shined much or was perceived to have done so in the tournament). I never asked if you were thinking of Fracescoli as a midfielder in 1986 specifically yourself but I guess even if so you're not 100% as you wouldn't be considering my alternative view . Maybe it's not so important though if he isn't going to be a big scorer in your results... I think ASF picked him out as a player of 1985, so probably does remember him from that time very well. Might be worth a PM to him still even if msioux and ChaCha don't provide a conclusive answer?
I just had an idea. Incidentally, Uruguay, Denmark and Argentina all played against Germany in 1986. Thus I had a look at Kicker's tactical lineups after the games and this is how Kicker saw the roles of Francescoli, Laudrup and Maradona in the games vs. Germany:
Diego Maradona FW ---> AM at 1st phase and ended as SS Jose Cuciuffo DF ---> FB first and ended as ST Liegeon DF ---> Medjadi ?? Magharia DF ---> Megharia Mabrouk MF ---> Ben Mabrouk Kaci MF ---> Kaci Said Zidane FW ---> Djamel Zidane Borghi MF ---> i think he was SS, when Maradona played as AM in 1st phase H.Enrique MF ---> RWB in 3-5-2, but was naturally a CM Olarticoechea MF ---> LWB in 3-5-2, but was naturally a LB Desmet MF ---> FW?? Boaro DF ---> EDSON Boaro (RB) Junior DF ---> CM or AM Gray MF ---> FW ?? Valentine FW ---> MF ?? M.Laudrup MF ---> SS Elkjaer-Larsen FW G.M.Stevens DF ---> there was a G.A. Stevens also Tusseau MF ---> LB N.Eder DF ---> some matches DM ?? Roth DF ---> MF ?? Garaba MF ---> DF ?? Kiprich MF ---> FW ?? Bognar FW ---> MF ?? Burcsa FW ---> MF ?? Minshid DF ---> MF ?? Basil MF ---> Bassim ?? Hassan MF ---> FW ?? Shibab MF ---> FW ?? Amaiesh FW ---> MF ?? R.Flores DF ---> who is he? Los Cobos MF ---> FW ?? Bouderbala MF ---> FW ?? Labd MF ---> who is he? Worthington DF ---> MF ?? Penney FW ---> MF ?? Stewart FW ---> MF ?? Nunes DF ---> DM/CM Canete MF ---> Cañete AM/SS ?? Guasch MF ---> FW ?? Cabanas FW ---> Cabañas Romero FW ---> AM Dziekanowski MF ---> FW ?? Boniek FW ---> Side MF/FW ?? Manuel MF ---> Carlos Manuel ?? Nicol DF ---> MF ?? Min Kook Cho MF ---> DF ?? Young Jeung Cho MF ---> DF ?? Byung Ho Byun FW ---> MF ?? R.Gallego MF ---> DF Senor MF ---> Señor Pereira DF ---> MF ?? Francescoli FW ---> free role FW and AM when J.Barrios were missed Bal MF ---> LB Rats MF ---> some match LW http://www.rsssf.com/tables/86full.html
I've found a full copy of the Denmark-Uruguay game and Francescoli does seem to start on the left wing (unless he just popped up there in the first minute). Laudrup as I've seen from his individual game highlights could be said to be one of two strikers (basically the SS though) as shown by Kicker and rsssf although as Gregoriak said he was in a "hybrid" role really and Denmark could equally be said to be said to have played a sort of 4-5-1. Forward is suitable for him though I think but midfielder would be a more reasonable definition for him than Elkjaer (I mainly thought that Maradona shouldn't be a forward if Laudrup isn't for that World Cup although perhaps it was different at least at times for Juventus and Napoli around that time): Francescoli does line up in attack vs Argentina according to rsssf then, but I'm more satisfied with calling him a midfielder now I think (again probably was different at Club level at that time it seems). Maradona is a tough call. Normally I suppose it's more impressive to have a great impression and goals/assists as a midfielder, but with these stats and analysis it seems the other way so it would be more generous to say he's a forward perhaps (unless that just happened that way with Zico/Lato - it will vary a bit anyway but passing stats etc will generally be better among midfielders).
rsssf does seem to have some slight errors - Aughentahler didn't play in midfield did he (not according to Kicker who should be spot on with the German team)? Also Jesper Olsen seems to be listed too far to the right at times (maybe the midfielders aren't meant to be in order accross the pitch though?). According to Kicker, maybe even Briegel would be better as a defender then (I'd thought he was vs Argentina but wasn't sure in other games - they line him up behind Brehme though and I know Brehme was used as a midfielder at times by the NT)? Kicker's line-ups could be spot on altogether (I was doubting the Francescoli left wing thing until I saw the opening play in the Denmark game though - Uruguay did go to 10 men early btw so would have re-shuffled a bit I guess). rsssf also show Burrachaga in attack vs Germany, but not in other games so that would seem very feasible too - the 1986 Final is one I've seen in highlight form rather than full but midfielder vs England seems correct (rsssf also show Maradona in attack for that game - feasible to call it a one man attack in Valdano I would say but overall it backs up putting Maradona as a forward probably as rsssf only put him as a midfielder in the final I notice now - would Matthaus have still marked him if he played further forward? - probably yes I guess if it was a chosen tactic and I think that's because Maradona had really been playing in the 'hole' anyway but with Burrachaga in midfield and/or to the right).
I also thought I'd come accross info somewhere that said Argentina played 3 at the back some time in the World Cup although rsssf doesn't seem to indicate that. Having mentioned Francescoli before, I noticed you said free role FW then AM so maybe left wing wasn't a static position for him? I'll try and watch a bit more of the Denmark game tonight and report back any impressions about him.
Having watched up until the sending off (though the first few minutes are missing) he doesn't really play as an authodox left winger (the very next piece of Uruguay play after the one I watched has him receiving the ball in the inside right channel, but overall he seems to operate more as an inside left than outside left probably). Anyway, free role FW or free role MF or free left MF - I suppose rsssf would list 4 midfielders like that even if it wasn't a 4-4-2 anyway. He's not really playing up close to the number 9 anyway, but if msioux does think FW is preferable then that's fine but otherwise MF is also ok I think actually.
btw, and I was going to mention this after recalling it was on the Laudrup individual video for the game - Elkjaer does have one header from a Laudrup cross but he was offside so it doesn't count! He was free though so maybe not a dual but I guess it would have counted as an aerial dual won if not offside?
Ok final observation for now - the rsssf link has the England midfield vs Poland as Hoddle, Steven, Hodge, Reid wheras in fact from right to left it would be Steven, Hoddle, Reid, Hodge (anyway with Hoddle and Reid in the centre) - so it doesn't list a 4-4-2 from right to left anyway. Francescoli was also shown on the left by Kicker vs Germany though. Anyway I think MF is ok, unless as I said msioux does feel FW (because he was like a free role FW) is more suitable.
My first impression: In Maradona's case i agree with what PDG said. Diego played mostly in the hole (ala italian way). In some matches with 2 FWs upfront (Valdano + Pasculli) and another with 1 FW (Valdano) For Laudrup, if i'm not mistaken, he began his career as a LW, then as a SS (first years at Juventus). So, for his club role by then and the teammates in danish midfield (Arnesen, Molby, Berggreen, Bertelsen, Lerby) is reasonable supposed to Laudrup played an advanced role in WC86. Francescoli, in his River days was more like a false 9. So, Uruguay was supposed to played something like 4-3-3 with a false winger (Francescoli in LW spot) and Alzamendi (RW) and Polilla da Silva (CF) in more advanced role. Meanwhile Bossio playing deffensive role, Barrios was supposed to be playmaker and also Santin/Saralegui in creative role.
Yes, from what I've seen that all makes sense including Francescoli as the false left winger (so midfielder is ok I think for him). I think Laudrup seems to have played as a LAM similar to Boniek for Juve, but arguably further forward as well as more centrally/free for Denmark - doesn't really matter if we say also in the 'hole' like Maradona or as a SS as long as we don't classify him in a deeper role than Maradona for that World Cup I think.
My idea is too that Francescoli often played as false nine with #9. He was played out of position for Uruguay. Maradona played initially closely behind two forwards and ahead of three midfielders + two sidebacks (vs Italy) but later on they switched to two forwards with Maradona being one of those.
I've lost track a bit of whether Boniek has definately been classified yet - this video would back-up putting him down as a midfielder though:
Yeah, the PlanetWorldCup link I posted earlier in the thread suggested he played as sweeper for Poland in the '86 World Cup too, but from what I've seen of the England and Brazil games he was in midfield and even if he played a bit as sweeper I think midfield is ok for the classification.
I'd still have Briegel as midfielder because those were the only two games where Kicker had him as a defender: Uruguay v Ger -> defender Scotland v Ger -> midfielder Denmark v Ger -> injured Morocco v Ger -> midfielder Mexico v Ger -> midfielder France v Ger -> midfielder Argentina v Ger -> defender
I'm ok with that - Maradona could be FW or Laudrup could maybe be MF I guess but if they are in seperate categories I'd think it should be as above not with Laudrup as MF and Maradona as FW. Does it look like Maradona would score very differently as a FW compared to a MF on your points system? I'm sure he's likely to do pretty well on either basis!
Ah ok, yeah I thought you'd know about that one but just thought I'd check in case it was an oversight - it was just for those 2 you posted that he was at left back then - makes sense to say midfielder in that case as per what you you had him down for.
I can only tell when everything's finished. With Maradona as MF, would you suggest Burruchaga should be a FW instead of a MF?