World Cup Individual Advanced Stats

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by schwuppe, Dec 18, 2012.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    I found these:


    Nice final goal in the Switzerland game (Littbarski scored better goals from dribbles but not in the World Cup - some shown on the compilations below, others shown on a compilation not available now; however these aren't necessarily Haller's best goals just the ones he scored in a World Cup and some clips from Bologna).
    Nice finish vs the Soviet Union too.



  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Also meant to mention nice goal at the end of the Haller Bologna compilation after a 'nutmeg' btw.

    IMO Littbarski did more in that World Cup as a ball carrier and creator, wheras Haller scored more goals. Maybe there's no correct answer in terms of who had the better World Cup or was more important to the team (maybe both were crucial in getting the team to the Final).
  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Final thought on that topic would be that Littbarski's penalty shoot-out goal was so good that perhaps we could say he scored 3 goals in total (a shoot-out also has more pressure than a regular penalty I suppose) if we are comparing to Haller?
  4. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

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    I second that Litbarski got my vote for the very very good worldcup ... notably with a so-so team..
    PDG1978 repped this.


  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Another way of looking at the goals and assists stats would be that Littbarski had one of either in 7 out of 11 German goals in 1982 wheras it was 7 out of 15 for Haller in 1966 including a penalty. But wheras some of the stats including the goals scored might be harsh on Littbarski if used to analyse his contribution and compare it to Haller and others, perhaps that would be harsh on Haller...

    Using the goals and assists (and not accounting for pre-assists if there were relevant ones, influence on flow of the game, retention of possession, defending etc) then we could also say that Littbarski's had a key effect on 3 games and Haller's on just the Soviet Union game. That doesn't inlcude Haller's contributions in big wins, but neither Littbaski's against Chile as he assisted 2 goals but they scored 4 and won 4-1.
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Littbarski had also more skill in my perception. In that sense the narrative of ardent Beckenbauer fans is correct: when Beckenbauer came on the scene he was the exception. He would not look out of place if you put him in the great Brazilian teams (1958, 1970 or 1982). He stood out in the technical aspect compared with his colleagues, and contrasted with the dominant mindset in his country.

    That is also a reason btw why he expressed his opinion in the press when a German sports physiologist said in 1983 that way too much emphasis was laid on the physical aspect (stamina) and that it is wrong to apply exactly the same exercises and "medical preparation" on Littbarski and Rummenigge alike. "In layman terms: you overheat him [Littbarski]", said the professor. That every player received the same (or close to it) exercises and treatment from the experts was wrong in his view.
    Beckenbauer sought the press and said that he agreed with this professor regarding Littbarski.

    You can say that Littbarski scored less goals but his shot accuracy was not inferior, even a bit better. So whenever he made an attempt, he did it well. His pass accuracy and cross accuracy is also quite good (and indeed, he did not play in a 'WOW team', to speak with James his words ;) ).

    Something else: maybe schwuppe is right that the Hassler case at euro92 is the exception. I would still regard him as in contention for player of the tournament award but the landslide (an even bigger landslide as Platini84 or Van Basten88) was out of place.
    His coach Berti Vogts did not agree with this result. However, his alternative was not very strong. Vogts saw Van Basten as best player of euro92, followed by Brian Laudrup and Hassler.
    That is not really credible. Although he did play well in my perception and had a legit goal disallowed, he was obviously not in contention for best player of euro92 IMO.
    But nevertheless, Hassler his own coach Vogts publicly disagreed in a polite way so maybe this 'landslide case' is indeed the exception. I can accept the sensibleness of that view.

    Schwuppe also said that Matthaus, Muller and Beckenbauer are generally underrated (and I agreed about Matthaus and Muller) but I looked for a few lists and I'm not so sure anymore. For example: The Times did put Müller70 above Cruijff74. Maradona86 was obviously #1 but Müller70 and Beckenbauer66 were both placed ahead of Cruijff74 by The Times.
    After seeing a few lists (FourFourTwo is another good example) I do think that Müller70 and Beckenbauer66 are generally placed in top 10 all time WC performances (certainly top 15).
  7. 621380

    621380 Member

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    here is a other good example where müllers worldcup career is overated.....placar (brasil)....a football country brasil where is allways full in love with german player gerd müller....crujff is heavily underated with his 6th place ....

    http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/placwc100.html
    PuckVanHeel repped this.
  8. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    No. There seems to be a missunderstanding. (or twisting things around?)
    If I disagree with something it doesn't mean that I (or anyone) support the exact opposite...

    You've said:
    My response:
    You've said that German players are easily overhyped - I've said that's not true and NOT that they're underrated.



    Pointing out one instance where a player recieved an award that he likely didn't deserve to support that 'EVERY German player receives an enormous hype' is nonsense.
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Probably there is indeed a misunderstanding. I also said that this is true for Argentinian and Brazilian players (which you yourself said about Brazil), both in contemporary context (receiving plaudits at the moment itself while others play equally good) and in historical context. I also said that this is true for Italian defenders.

    That is why the stellar stats for Hassler (esp. chances created) in 1994 surprised me because: 1) did not receive high journalistic ratings and 2) not included in all-star teams.

    As far as I was able to track, the journalists voted for an player of the tournament since 1972 until UEFA took over in 2000. In 1972 Müller won one vote, Netzer the other one. At euro76 there was a more organized effort with goalkeeper Viktor voted as player of tournament.

    1980: Rummenigge
    1984: Platini
    1988: Van Basten
    1992: Hassler
    1996: Eilts

    Which three are the most subject to challenge do you think? See a pattern?

    World Cup organizes Golden Ball vote since 1978. Three reached the top three: Rummenigge (1982), Matthaus (1990) and Kahn (2002).
    I can tell you that the first and last one are controversial, esp. because the last one won. Can you name some great German performers since 1978 who unjustly missed the top three?

    On the other hand, Kahn arguably deserved to be in top three anyway and that Schillaci was voted ahead of Matthaus in 1990 is also doubtful.

    I also asked in response: compared to whom is Matthaus exactly underrated do you think? As said, I already gave you the name Baggio94 and Stoichkov94.

    These three names are regularly placed in top 10 or top 15 performers. I agree that they are generally not named alongside Pelé70 and Maradona86.
    Do you mean that they are rated just about right?

    But if this is not true for Brazil ("the hype machine"), with players overhyped (or more frequently mentioned than others) then it must mean that some others are unfairly underrated right? This are sort of communicating variables in that respect.

    To emphasize: I do think that Hassler was one of the main contenders in 1992 and not an undeserving winner but it was close and anyway not clear cut the best one. Hope you understand what I mean here.
    Point is more that exactly these kind of nations get the benefit of doubt and the press behind them if there are many good and similar performers - even if these nations do not win the main trophy (which, you might argue, should be the tie-breaker when a few players have a similar performance).
  10. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    Can you name some great performers from whatever country who missed the top three?

    When did I say Matthäus is underrated?

    Yes. Finally.
  11. 621380

    621380 Member

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    do you can post the link of the times with the ranking....is the times somthing like placar...???

    and finally do you can post your own top 10 worldcup performers....

    thanks...
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Giresse and Boniek in 1982 to start with, for example.

    Point was as said that with similar performances those countries mentioned above get the nod, even if the end-result was not superb.
    For example: midfielder Ballack among the ten names of 2006 Golden Ball shortlist? Other one: Dunga in 1998 was not markedly better as Brian Laudrup.

    Only WC I can think of with real tokenism was 2002WC but even then some superb performers from small countries like Wilmots missed out among the first 25 names. 2002WC lists was combination of tokenism and a brain infarct.

    You also see it at the very top end. How often are Eusebio and Cruyff discussed for the real top spot in WC performance? Mostly it is about Pelé (1958 and 1970), Maradona and Garrincha. I also have Maradona at one btw but they are rarely discussed on equal terms.
  13. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    No it's all in your head.
    Davor Suker, Hristo Stoichkov, Hong Myung-Bo, Diego Forlan.
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Are these phrases necessary?
  15. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

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    FIFA made some changes in their agenda (not sure if good or bad):
    WC02: all about GK and WC06 all about DF (as oppose to previous WC, all about attackers)

    I can agree for Eusebio66 and Muller 70 as underated, but Cruijff 74 was surely always in TOP10 best WC performer if not even TOP5. Unless you think he deserved TOP2 or 3?
  16. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    Cruyff does deserve to be Top 5 at easily.
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    I don't know how big the top tier should be but he belongs to the top tier of performers I think, yes. Maradona86 too. Eusebio66 too considering that he was sort of a one man army and had not an easy draw. Defensive stats are good and Eusebio was even not entirely fit. Also Cruijff was in 1974 tired btw and struggled with a minor knee injury (conditionally he was not on top shape because he missed many training sessions during the preparation phase due to that same knee). I also see that not many other players of those Portugal and Orange teams made schwuppe his shortlist unlike Germany1966 for example.

    I was btw surprised to see the amount of fouls that Cubillas suffered in 1970 (in four games). 1970WC isn't a nasty WC overall unlike 1974, 1978 and 1990WC (source: the same OPTA - those three WC had the highest average of fouls). Though, as said earlier, fouls suffered can be interpreted in two ways; protection or 'license to kill'. It is a bit of a shaky stat.

    schwuppe, and please answer the question this time, who do you think are the top 5 or top 10? Or the top tier and second tier? You can chose for yourself the way you want to present this.
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Can't find the list of single WC performances any more. But this is their list of 'greatest WC players':

    1. Maradona
    2. Pelé
    3. Beckenbauer
    4. Meazza
    5. G. Müller
    6. Garrincha
    7. Cruyff
    8. Ronaldo
    9. Moore
    10. Puskas


    Why is Eusebio not included? Yes, he only played in one WC but unlike Cruyff who vaguely mumbled about "credibility" and "responsibility" he has a good excuse. He did not drop out voluntarily.
  19. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    Stats?
    Maradona 86, Cruyff 74, Pele 70, Eusebio 66, Jairzinho 70, Deyna 74, Kempes 78.
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Thanks for providing another good example btw.

    Kicker and Adidas organized as you know an unofficial Golden Ball poll for 1974WC. Guess who was with 278 points voted in between Deyna (175) and Cruyff (372). Guess for who the English, German and Italian representative voted. It wasn't Deyna and it wasn't Cruyff - and it wasn't a landslide. The same happened again with the Ballon d'Or of that calender year.

    Also look at where Eusebio ranks in FIFA their retrospective ranking.

    Myung-Bo doesn't count in your list. I already said that 2002WC was spoiled by tokenism, a bad selection and James is also right that FIFA changed their agenda and wanted to give defenders and GK more of a chance.

    I agree that Forlan was not a very strong candidate in a weak World Cup. All three had good ratings though. Suker even higher as Ronaldo98 in some publications (Suker his weakest game was against Argentina).

    Forlan, Stoichkov and Suker all ended as (shared) topscorer in their tournament. Since 1978 it only happened two times that the topscorer wasn't included among the first three: in 1986 and 2006 when the shortlisted Klose missed out with his five goals (which was the lowest since 1962WC and that in an expanded WC).
    Crucially, Stoichkov and Suker were outvoted by other strikers, not by a midfielder, a 'playmaking-forward' or goaltender.
    Only other time when that happened was the 1986 World Cup where Lineker was outvoted by Elkjaer (and I did not categorize England among the fancied nations although that has changed a bit with the rise of the EPL).

    Who were the main credible alternatives for Stoichkov and Suker? Keep in mind that rarely two players of the same nation end on the podium. So Brazil, Italy and France are ruled out. In case of Stoichkov I can only think about Klinsmann of the 'big nations' (other than Italy or Brazil) who was in contention for a top three spot at 1994WC.
    So who were the alternatives for these two?

    planetworldcup also calculates the MVP (goals + assists) for each tournament. I see a pattern.

    1978: Kempes (Argentina) - won Golden Ball
    1982: Rossi (Italy) - won
    1986: Maradona (Argentina) - won
    1990: Schillaci (Italy) - won
    1994: Stoichkov (Bulgaria) - 3rd, outvoted by striker
    1998: Suker (Croatia) - 2nd, outvoted by striker
    2002: Ronaldo (Brazil) - 2nd, outvoted by goaltender
    2006: Klose (Germany) - final rank unknown, goaltender won
    2010: Müller (Germany) - final rank unknown, won young player award

    I need to say that last three WCs were not very good overall and FIFA took over the poll indeed and changed the agenda.
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Great Deyna video


    :thumbsup:
  22. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    When I watched the long highlights of Poland vs Argentina on ESPN Classic I thought Deyna had a very good game that time also. It was more noticeable than on the video below (I remember some very good dribbling/drifting past defenders as well as great passing including over long distance) but there are still a few excellent passes from him on it so worth posting I think:

    Personally I liked the positivity of Poland's approach and the fact that they had a playmaker such as Deyna in the middle of a 3 man midfield, but the stats did show him with good amounts of recoveries, tackles etc IIRC. Notable game from Lato too vs Argentina, although would have been nice if he'd managed to finish the left footed through pass from Deyna around the middle of the video. Another excellent pass from Deyna - a chance created again - is near the end of the video. So basically the video gives a good idea, but the longer version showed more in terms of keeping possession etc (which the stats do also reflect I think without being specific - I remember now that Castrol did say that they tried to evaluate the quality of each piece of play but I'm not sure how easy that would be; anyway Opta's approach is more basic I think and a successful pass is a successful pass and nothing more).
    PuckVanHeel repped this.
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Lato ended sixth in the poll. Seeler and Pelé were also in the panel. Pelé voted for Cruyff btw. All national team trainers, journalists, club trainers, FIFA and UEFA officials, players and former players were invited to cast their vote with six names. Kicker noted that Rinus Michels was the only national team trainer of UEFA and CONMEBOL members who refused cooperation and did not vote. Many invited Dutch players did not vote they said but that was not specified in names.

    1. Cruyff (Netherlands) 372
    2. Beckenbauer (Germany) 278
    3. Deyna (Poland) 175
    4. Neeskens (Netherlands) 120
    5. Oblak (Yugoslavia) 46
    6. Lato (Poland) 37
    7. Pereira (Brazil) 35
    8. Bremner (Scotland) 32
    9. Babington (Argentina) 28
    10. Hoeness (Germany) 27
    11. Hellstrom (Sweden) 26
    11. Marinho Chagas (Brazil) 26
    11. Gadocha (Poland) 26
    14. Breitner (Germany) 22
    14. Mazzola (Italy) 22
    16. Müller (Germany) 15
    16. Overath (Germany) 15
    18. Vogts (Germany) 13
    19. Szarmach (Poland) 10
    19. Maier (Germany) 10
    21. Dzajic (Yugoslavia) 9
    22. Figueroa (Chile) 8
    23. Rivellino (Brazil) 6
    23. Edstrom (Sweden) 6
    25. Van Hanegem (Netherlands) 5
    25. Francillon (Haiti) 5
    25. Bonev (Bulgaria) 5
    28. Bajevic (Yugoslavia) 4
    28. Acimovic (Yugoslavia) 4
    28. Jairzinho (Brazil) 4

    Maier and Rivellino are too low in this poll I think. Maier was generally seen as excellent, also in the final and Rivellino also played well (Castrol has him relatively high too).
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    I saw a while ago btw that rsssf made a mistake, but I did not mention it anywhere because tournaments before 1980 have not been discussed on this board:
    http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/fifa-awards.html#gball

    First official FIFA Golden Ball was not awarded in 1978 but in 1982. The 1978 result on the rsssf site has also a mistake: Krankl ended level with Dirceu.

    1978:
    1. Kempes - named in 17 lists
    2. Rossi 14
    3. Krankl, Dirceu 8
    5. Krol 7
    6. Fillol, Haan, Rensenbrink 6
    9. Luque 5
    10. Cubillas, Hellstrom 4
    12. Passarella 3
    13. Rep, Lato, Bettega, Neeskens, Tresor 2

    The voters made not a ranking but were just asked to fill in names and the one (Kempes) who was named in most lists won.

    Some noteworthy selections (names in no particular order):

    J. Charlton:
    Tresor, Rep, Krankl, Gentile, Rossi

    Brandenberg (kicker):
    Rensenbrink, Kempes, Haan, Hellstrom, Bettega

    Helenio Herrera:
    Luque, Rossi, Kempes, Krol, Rensenbrink

    Gigi Riva:
    Rensenbrink, Cubillas, Kempes, Tardelli, Rossi

    Alfredo di Stefano:
    Pezzey, Prohaska, Fillol, Krol, Kempes

    Powell (Daily Mail):
    Dirceu, Fillol, Krol, Kempes, Luque

    Anyhow, is a good occasion to post it here.

    Also available here and I double checked it with other sources a while ago.

    http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1978/10/02/pagina-9/1042164/pdf.html?search=kempes rossi

    But rsssf makes a minor mistake there in not naming Krankl.
  25. Bruford

    Bruford Member

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    Four four two magazine also had some lists about best players in each WC. On their site, I can only find the lists from 82 until 98.
    WC82 top 10 players:
    1- Paolo Rossi
    2- Bruno Conti
    3- Falcão
    4- Socrates
    5- Dino Zoff
    6- Platini
    7- Scirea
    8- Zico
    9- Boniek
    10- Breitner

    WC86 top 10 players:
    1- Maradona
    2- Elkjaer
    3- Lineker
    4- Careca
    5- Schumacher
    6- Belanov
    7- Batista
    8- Luis Fernandes
    9- Butragueno
    10- Ceulemans

    WC90 top 10 players:
    1- Schillachi
    2- Matthaus
    3- Maradona
    4- Brehme
    5- Milla
    6- Gascoigne
    7-Stojkovic
    8- Conejo
    9- Baresi
    10- Klinsmann

    WC94 top 10 players:
    1- Romario
    2- Stoichkov
    3- Hagi
    4- Baggio
    5- Dunga
    6- Maldini
    7- Marcio Santos
    8- Brolin
    9- Klinsmann
    10- Balakov

    WC98 top 10 players:
    1- Thuram
    2- Ronaldo
    3- Suker
    4- Desailly
    5- Bergkamp
    6- Vieri
    7- Veron
    8- Davids
    9- Dunga
    10- Zidane
    http://fourfourtwo.com/lists/
    There are some really debatables choices (like Maradona so high in WC90, Zico so low in WC82 and no place for Rivaldo in WC98).
    PuckVanHeel repped this.

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