World Cup Individual Advanced Stats

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by schwuppe, Dec 18, 2012.

  1. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

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    rightly so ,,, at least more than 60-70% true ... (unless they were dysfunctional teams like Brazil 2006, France 2010 Argentina 2002 ... or Real Galacticos 2004-06, Barca 00-03 ... that come to mind)


  2. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

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    As far as I can remember, I think Da Silva and Alzamendi were the forwards for Uruguay at WC86, with Francescoli starting as playmaker. However, Ruben Paz often would come in at the start of the second half for either one of the forwards (usually Da Silva), then Francescoli moved to one of the forward positions. For WC90, Paz and Francescoli both started as playmakers, with Alzamendi and Sosa as the forwards.

    In regards to Maradona with Argentina, it is well known that Bilardo utilized an unprecedented 4-5-1 at the WC, with Valdano as the sole forward and reference point up front. However, if we look at the goals scored by Maradona, two of them were from advanced striker position (vs Itay and first one vs England), while the three others can be categorized as starting from midfield (both vs Belgium) or deep midfield (second vs England).
  3. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

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    Actually Billardo varied his formation quite a lot, and so was Maradona position changed accordingly
    - Group stage + G16: 4 3 1 2 - Maradona was AM/playmaker (4games)

    --------------------- Pumpilo ----------------------
    Cussicufo ---- Brown --------- Ruggeri -----Garre

    ------ Giusti ------ Batista ---- Buuruchaga------
    -------------------- Maradona -------------------
    ------- Pasculi --------------------------------
    ---------------------------- Valdano -----------

    - Quarter to Final: 5 3 1 1 or 3 5 1 1 Maradona was a FW/"trequartista" (3games)

    -------------------- Pumpilo---------------------
    --------------------- Brown -----------------------
    --------- Cucicuffo ------------Ruggeri ----------
    Giusti ---------------------------------Olearticoecha
    -------- Enrique ---- Batista ----Burrugacha--------
    ---------------- Maradona -------------------------
    --------------------------Valdano ------------------

    ================================================

    As most people tend to remember the last 3 games especially vs England and Belgium where he scored 2 Best solo goals there, they LABELED Maradona as a FW in WC86!

    Fact is 57% as AM and 43% as FW at WC86,
    But in WC90, Maradona was solely used a FW just behind Caniggia in 3 5 1 1 formation
  4. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

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    Pasculli only played one match for Argentina, against Uruguay where he scored the winner. Borghi played in the first match, but was dropped in favor of Giusti after he failed to impress Bilardo. The inclusion of Giusti allowed Maradona to play a bit further up the field, but he was still the main playmaker for the team throughout the competition. He just happened to also be their top scorer, with some goals he both starting and finishing the play.


  5. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

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    Thanks everyone for their contributions! I guess it's a bit of a dilemma with Maradona .... having him as a midfielder doesn't do him justice points-wise (he would skyrocket like Zico in '82 if we'd have him among the forwards). But as Pipiolo and James pointed out, Maradona was just a bit more of a midfielder than a forward in '86.

    Due to msioux's information on R.Gallego (DF instead of MF) and Romero (MF instead of FW), the final results would have to be altered anyway.

    Should I move Maradona to the forward category? Still undecided.
  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Although the data doesn't go back beyond 1966, I guess calling him a forward would tie in slightly more with the old World Cups too (where there were of course more forwards playing, but some of the inside forwards or deep-lying centre-forwards played equivalently to him in terms of areas of the pitch perhaps although his style and abilities were more unique).
    Also, it seems for this purpose that the stats tie in more with those of a forward, for players in that sort of role - not completely but it does seem that central midfielders did rack up many more passes and of course interceptions etc so were functioning quite differently from outright AM's or free role players.

    Having said that I don't mind really whether he's called a MF or FW myself. For consistency I suppose if we say he's a FW then all similar players in later World Cups should be too (and hopefully it wouldn't get too arguable - I'd still say Hagi would be a MF I think for example). And if someone asked me if he played as a MF or FW in that World Cup generally speaking I'd still be undecided :confused:! As msioux highlighted it was probably a bit of both (which wasn't the case for Hagi in '90 or '94 as far as I know/remember although I believe he did play a bit in attack in Club football sometimes).
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  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    It is good to note that goal+assists are often decisive for people. In those categories he is superior to the others like Pelé, Zico, Cruyf etc.
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    In a way most big names were 'unusual' cases. Beckenbauer was an unusual midfielder/defender; Pelé in 1970 had midfield duties too (you see him engaging tackles in midfield, often resulting in a foul :p ); Cruyff was unusual forward; Zico in 1982 can be seen as a midfielder.
  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    True yeah, and a lot of the great names were seen as good enough to merit a free or special role.
  10. ChaChaFut

    ChaChaFut Member

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    Nice post. Maradona was a '10'. Attacking midfielders are basically withdrawn forwards. So although he was nominally part of the midfield, we all know that his primary role was to attack. For the purpose of these comparative stats and ratings/ratings, he could be in the 'FW' category, but as you point out well, nominal field positions as well as actual roles on the pitch have evolved over the years, so it may not bee too practical to use the same denominations (DF-MF-FW) across all eras.
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  11. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

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    Like you said is a very close call. I put it 50-50% :)


    btw, i think that in last games, the Argentinian RWB was H.Enrique and Giusti still played in 1st midfield line, with Burruchaga playing attacking role in midfield.
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Yes, they had an extensive role. It is not only Maradona who had this.

    Also depends on fitness level. I.e. Zico against Italy was more like a forward.
  13. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

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    Like I put up, at WC82 and 86: he was more of a MF than FW (with 60%)
    only at WC90 he was 80% as FW

    We have to put that per WC.

    Looking at the "position ONLY" yes it was close call as he was either a FW or MF, however WATCHING him playing (or withhelp of heat map_) it would indicate him more of a "trescartista" = playmaker behind the striker/FW

    Here I suggest you have to put 2 category for MF: AM (including attacking winger) and CM (including DM) - Maradona was well fit in AM more than a FW (in the mould of Rossi82 Muller 70's or Ronaldo98/02 )
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Found this:

    Most (sanctioned) fouls per game in the World Cup 1966-2006
    [among top eight teams who played the most matches at WC level]

    Netherlands 21.9
    Argentina 19.1
    France 18.0
    Italy 17.7
    Spain 16.9
    Germany 16.8
    England 16.7
    Brazil 16.1

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00019/ttsthreelions_19041a.pdf


    For 2010 WC it was (last 16 teams):

    Mexico 21.0
    Chile 19.8
    Paraguay 19.4
    Netherlands 18.0
    Ghana 18.0
    Japan 17.5
    Slovakia 17.0
    Brazil 15.6
    Portugal 15.0
    South Korea 14.2
    Uruguay 14.1
    United States 13.5
    Argentina 13.0
    England 12.8
    Spain 11.6
    Germany 10.7
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