Why we need to be patient with this team

Re: Aceval

I was thinking the same thing. Are there, really, any people out there that thought JDG was in a Frings type class? I don't think it is an insult to JDG to say he is not, never has been and was never going to be.

People have to drop the Frings v JDG comparison. Frings played how many times for Germany? (don't look it up the answer is 79 - how many players ever did that...look that one up 'cause I don't know but I am gonna go out on a limb and say "not many"). Frings played in World Cup Final!! How many players that have ever played in MLS have played in a WC Final? (again feel free to look it up....but, again, I am gonna say "not many").

It is a given that TF is the best player on TFC (now and ever). He is, arguably, the best player to ever play in MLS.....so for anyone to look at Frings and say "that is what we expected from JDG" is just,well, wrong.

Well the argument I would make is the damage to have him on the team is not his play, it's team psychology. As everybody knows, his salary/play imbalance sent Dero packing. Remember what Dero said, something like, I'm scoring all the goals and I'm not being paid for it. Did the resentment stop there? Or was it everywhere? Maybe it makes lots of the players feel under-appreciated. Why only one player upset about it ... And now DG's giving Winter a hard time.

If they cut him loose, they may lower talent in the position, but they may raise the team overall ..... Just call me Sigmund Freud.

Re: Aceval

I don't want to go on about this too much, then I come off as a JDG basher--, which I don't really want. The point is people expected more than they got, and they had every reason to expect it. I remember very early on, they saw JDG dishing the ball off to players less talented them himself at every opportunity and wondering what's up? It was rather shocking. It won't last people said. He was new to the league and finding himself. Then nothing changed .. There wasn't the creativity or .. what, ideas, vision .. average pace? expected. Ambition? He didn't even want the ball!

What Ive noticed about JDG is that he plays as good as the players around him. When he plays with talented players like he did with Deportivo and like he sometimes does with Canada (i.e. Hutchinson, etc.) he creates space for them and has other players there to cover his mistakes. When he's playing with Ty Harden and Terry Dunfield, there isnt much he can do.
Plus, MLS really isnt suited to his style. he still might've been decent for us if he was a non-DP or even a $400-800k DP, but I dont think he was ever a $1.8mil player.

Stupid Mo.

I wish I knew more about how the salary structure works.

How come LA and NY can spend like drunken sailors and we have to keep DeGuzman ?

But that can't be true. Everyone knows that MLSE are cheap and their cheapness is why Toronto teams (even the ones they don't own) never win

One of MLSE's problems is that they DO spend money like drunken sailors. People forget that the Leafs actually had some competitive teams in the early 90s. But they have never adjusted to a league with a salary cap. So, they overpay for mediocre players and sign them for long-term deals. It's the same thing with the Raptors and now TFC.

The key to success in a league with a salary cap is looking for low-priced talent, developing them and getting them to overperform. Which is why building through the academy is the absolute right thing to do and one of the few things that they've gotten right.

I've always maintained that MLSE is not cheap. Incompetent perhaps, but not cheap.

There are some strange rules though in the MLS and it is hard to understand. I do believe that when L.A. loans out Donavan and Beckham and all that, the money they get gets transferred into allocation money which allows them to overspend on the salary cap. I heard De Klerk talk about that before the Toronto L.A series. I'm sure what I said isn't exactly right, but there's something to it.

When Schellas Hyndman took over FCD, everything went wrong. It appeared to all the world that he was totally destroying a pretty solid team...

1) his formations didn't seem to work
2) his personnel choices were a freaking joke
3) the team seemed lost

The next season, the team began to understand the system he was trying to put in place and in short order we went to the MLS Cup.

Toronto deserves a winner, but I'm not sure that this team is far off the mark. You've lost heartbreakers but I really think that Winter can turn this around. You've got until November, and in MLS, the teams that suck at the beginning of the season FREQUENTLY do well in the playoffs.

I just wanted to contact you guys and say "keep the faith". Keep in mind that you are still trying to overcome the "scorched earth" disaster of the Mo Johnston years. That was never going to be easy.

My gut tells me that Winter is the guy. I firmly believe that the Dutch know more about football than all the other countries combined. I think he's smart enough to work this thing out, but it may require a real team leader to step up. Frings may be that guy. So far, he looks rusty to me, but he is highly respected around the world and there is a good reason for that. If he's rusty, rust can come off given some time.

...David Ferreira looked like crap the first part of the first season in Hyndman's first year... He needed to learn how to keep his feet in MLS without getting knocked off the ball. Now his nickname is "El Torito" because he terrorizes defenders with physical play. Frings will get his legs in MLS. Once he has adapted to MLS, the Reds may experience quite a bit of success.

Good luck. Hang in there. All is not lost. Tell the team to "throw away the rear-view mirror". Just focus on moving forward. It will come.

In my opinion Hyndman is the only legitimate example of someone looking as lost as Winter and successfully turning it around. In every other case mentioned - Schmid in Columbus, Arena in LA, Kreis in Salt Lake, Yallop in San Jose - it either didn't take nearly as long as people like to imagine, wasn't nearly as bad, or the person had a very reputable resume of success in the league to point to.

And in his first full year in charge Dallas started horribly but found form by summer and ended up winning 11 games from 30, more than TFC ever has, and nearly snuck into the playoffs.

This is "next season" though. For Winter (and a lot of the team) this is the second full season.

To do well in playoffs, don't you first have to make them?

In a league where we see so many other teams turning it around fast and, even, teams starting from scratch doing better, I find it hard to believe that we are still recovering from Mo this far on.

TFC desperately needs a legitimate CB (who can pair up with Cann), and still they can't get that piece of the puzzle solved.

Anyone realize what TFC ended up with from the DeRo trade? Aaron Maund (via the 1st rd pick from NYRB). That is unacceptable. You CAN NOT trade one of the top players in MLS and end up with Aaron Maund (no disrespect to him...hopefully he turns into a quality player). TFC should have gotten something of value, if not a legitimate CB. And now they're paying for it. Complete waste of a trade.

Yes I know TFC got other players in the deal before that, but quite frankly they weren't worth it. Tchani was somewhat acceptable, but to trade him for Iro was mind boggling. The only reason Iro looked good in Columbus is b/c he was paired up with Chad Marshall. Anyone can look good when they're paired up with Marshall.

Hopefully TFC can change their fortunes in the NCC.

Ive been hard on this team for a while now. YET ill say

they arent as bad as they seem. Its not possible.

they do have holes in the backline..big ones that just cant stop the bleeding of goals even with a legitimate shot stopper in there like Kocic

MLSE is not CHEAP. Inept yes, not cheap. They have spent money everywhere and anywhere...and they make a ton of money by doing it (just imagine how much more money they can make if they were to have all 3 teams in the playoffs)

Winter needs to play his best 11 available and stop playing favourites...get JDG out there with Frings, Avila, Cann, Soolsma, Plata, Johnson, Kovermanns...anyone with skill

I dunno.......when teams win but don't look that attractive we hear all the time "its results that matter"....when they lose but play somewhat decently we hear "they are playing some nice football.

I think teams are, often, just as bad as they seem.

While we are all being patient.....I am not sure why I am so fascintated by this stat but I started it a while ago and will keep tracking it.

There are, now, 9 teams that have reached double digits in points before TFC have reached single digits.

On a positive (patient?) note only 3 of those are in the East.....so (can't believe this matters so early in the season but I think it does now) that crucial 5th place is "only" 8 points ahead of TFC.

That said, the team sitting in 5th has played one match less than TFC and has yet to play a match at home! (TFC has burned 4 of their home matches already).

I do like the ensemble of players we have accumulated. The team is playing a good brand of football. I have patience for them. I especially like Ecks, Plata, and Silva. They all bode well for the future and there's a lot of raw talent there.

But Winter is a coach, and a coach needs to be judged on relative performance. His relative performance has been bad this season. He said this team would contend for the playoffs, they appear to be far from that.

We put up with a stinker in 2010 under the guise that this season would show an improvement. Well I'm calling the debt.

Moreso, the fact that we have developed these young players under Winter does not mean we need to keep him around.

If we assume there are two inputs: players and system. I think the players are better than the system (based on the quality in the line-up, excluding the back line). So let's keep it real, has Winter forced this system on a league where it doesn't work?

I honestly think Winter has not shown any adaptablility to the league, and is showing outright arrogance. This is the same character trait that pushes him to select Dunfield every week.

something i will give Winter credit for is limiting Silva's minutes over the last few weeks, i think it's a wise move to shelter a rookie until we collect a point.

I agree with sticking with the system for relative longterm. My only pet peeve when its clear we don't have the skill for it is the target man with wingers and fb's constantly bombarding in crosses from the outside. That only really works when you got wingers that can serve it on a plate. Tfc needs a minor shake up and have the speed from plata, avila or even lambe and should be exploiting that with through balls past the defenders and trying to beat the offside trap instead of only targeting danny k all game... keep the ball down and in control until we get the skill and confidence. Lobbing that ball in really pisses me off when it doesn't work 98% of the time and were stubborn enough to keep doing it all game.

There are, now, 12 teams that have reached double digits in points before TFC have reached single digits.

On a positive (patient?) note only 5 of those are in the East.....so that crucial 5th place is "only" 11 points ahead of TFC.

Both of the other Canadian based teams have reached double figures in points.

TFC are not the only club to yet gain a home win. Chivas are also 0-5 at home and Houston are 0-0.

Actually, Seattle have three DPs. Two differences - first, none of our DPs are a holding midfielder, although if Europe comes calling for Alonso, the FO will have to do some fancy accounting to keep him and the three we have; second, two of our DPs were promoted to the status on merit (Montero and Rosales) and the third doesn't have as fancy a resume as Frings and DeGuzman, so all three are inexpensive as DPs go. Hindsight is 20/20, but it hasn't worked out so well to spend tons of cash and cap space on one guy who is a decent player, but not as good as a guy in Seattle whose resume included Cuba and the North American second division who came much cheaper, and another guy with terrific pedigree and probably as good as the top tier of holding mids in the league, except he seems to spend half his time injured and most of the other half asked to play out of position. So there have been questionable choices and perhaps a bit of Eurosnobbery in allocation of resources. What is the one position where current and long-time former MLSers enjoy the favor of the U.S. manager? - holding mid.

That being said, it is painful to watch what is happening. I know it isn't a lot of fun. I hope you all can get things turned around quickly and re-energize the fans. I don't like being able to read the lettering on empty seats on the broadcasts and remember what a boon it was when TFC first came in. Perhaps you can take the "lovable losers" approach like Chicago Cubs fans.

Aaron Maund, plus Danny Koevermans and Torsten Frings. Trading away DeRo cleared cap room to make room to bring in the DPs.

Can you explain how moving one "max" player cleared enough room to add two other "max" players.