Some people make it sound as if the US wouldn't start the US Nigerians (Onyewu, Edu) or Brazilians (Feilhaber). Sometimes the level of idiocy here rises above the acceptable level.
USA Nationalmannschaft -----------------Yelldell--------------------- Chandler---Brooks---Morales---Johnson -------------Jones---Williams------------- Kiesewetter-----------------------Wooten -------------Parker---Boyd---------------- Auswechslung: Klinsmann; Fennell, Green; Zimmerman, Parker, McCargo; George Trainer: Jurgen Klinsmann Co-Trainer: Andreas Herzog Fitness-Trainer: Mark Verstegen ... wonder what some around here would say.
The Germans: Chandler, Johnson, Jones, and Williams. Johnson has been the best LB the US has seen in ages, and he is starting regularly for 2 seasons in the Bundesliga as a LB. I don't see any more logical starter than him. And moving him to midfield, where he hasn't played in ages, and has to run even more in that heat, makes even less sense. Chandler is a starting RB in the Bundesliga. Who is the alternative that would have been more accustomed to the weather in Honduras? Parkhurst, who last played a competitive match a couple of months ago in Denmark, and is now on the bench in Germany? Cherundolo, who is hurt in Germany? Lichaj, who plays in England? Nonsense. Jones, a regular starter for one of the better teams in Germany, and has been a core player for the US for the last year. Who do you start instead? Kljestan who plays in Belgium? Zusi, who has 1 competive Friendly in the last 3 months? Perhaps a small case could be made for Torres, but when has Torres really shined for the US? Plus, Jones set up our only goal with a slick pass. The arguments are pretty weak for a replacement of Jones in the XI. Williams. Now here one could make a marginal argument for Edu, who has been in pretty good form the last couple of weeks in Turkey, vs Williams being out-of-favor in Hoffenheim. It's a 50 of one or half dozen of another argument, but one could be made here. I see only 1 out of 4 German-Americans where any fair argument is even possible.
Yup. I agree with your assessement entirely. If people want to question the inclusion of Williams, and the way he's used...........that's fine with me. The other three to me are deserving of their position in the USMNT. If Dolo was healthy and match-fit he'd probably have started over Chandler yesterday, but he wasn't. And as sidefooter rightly points out, most of our squad are hyphenated-Americans of some sort. We all are. The singling out of our German-American players is a little odd. People pine for the return of Holden (born in Scotland), Feilhaber (born in Brazil), Adu (born in Ghana), and others. Hell, let's bring in Brooks.............and get another German-American into the fold ASAP.
Always attack the easiest, most simplistic, obvious targets. Politicians, dictators, corporate PR men, religious leaders have been taken ad of this type of simplicity since time began......and it works......still.
Johnson has been very good for us in all other games. Chandler started because Dolo is hurt and Jones is our most accomplished player, maybe not as good for country as club according to some but still a difficult guy to justify leaving out. Williams was the only questionable one of the bunch and he really has had some good play for the US. I recall BS collectively fawning after his first game as a defensive midfielder. He had the big mistake giveaway in his last game though from that botched free kick. So, one mistake, he still gets another chance. But I expect to see someone else in that spot after the game he played in Honduras.
Hey, that's another German-American ... or American-German ... or Kalifornien-Niedersachsen ... or something.
And Jonathan Spector too, right? He has a German passport. That's why he didn't have to go thru the whole work permit process in the UK.
I agree, but it's the coach's job to get the most possible out of the tools he has to work with and I think Juergen failed to do that. None of the players I listed that he could have brought in are world beaters, but they all could've brought something unique to the team that it was missing. Gatt isn't perfect, but he's got speed, strength, will dribble at a guy, and will give us width in attack and hustle on defense. I would take that over what our other options gave us, as either a starter or sub.
He did what most people posting here wanted him to do: play Chandler on the right already (he was supposed to be another Fabian), keep Fabian on the left since he is clearly the best LB in the pool (and that is true), and keep Jones and Williams in the center. Most of us were glad when the lineup came. EJ on the left, Dempsey in the center-to-the-right, Jozy as spearhead. Williams holding the fort. Jones and Mike providing service. Gonzo given his chance. It was as if JK had read the posts. I think he did what he could. The pool is just not THAT good. And it was Honduras away. Expected, although there was hope for a tie. That could have happened, but for one big mistake (taking out Jones and leaving no one to cover the hole). The problem is that a true top level coach would be needed to take this bunch into a deep run in Brazil. Not going to happen. But it's not like Klinsie is a bad coach. He's good, like Bob, and won't make the same mistake again. Qualification is not in doubt. To me, it's still a matter of, "once there, in the WC finals, what?"
I'm not against Chandler and Jones in the USMNT because they were born somewhere else. I'm against their inclusion because they wanted to play somewhere else, and the USA is their second choice. Team chemistry is a fragile thing, and it is impossible for me to believe that stalwarts from the 2009 CC and 2010 WC do not resent being replaced by players who grew up wanting to play for Germany. Similarly, it seems likely that young american players hoping to join the USMNT are not discouraged by finding a group of German kids ahead of them in the current coach's order of merit.
I think the starting lineup was fine, but the collection of players available on the bench left us without the ability to adjust when things weren't going quite right. One of the biggest differences between Bradley and Klinsmann is that Bradley built his bench and made his substitutions in ways that he could significantly change things up if we had to, which is part of why we often finished games so strongly when he was coach. With Klinsmann we haven't really been able to do that.
Except for the Boca vs Gonzo gamble, I agree that the starting XI was about as good as one might have expected. You can honestly debate the Williams vs Edu issue, but it's not conclusive. The CB issue was the big one. I'm a big believer in transitioning the CBs to more younger guys like Gonzo or Besler. But before the game I argued on a number of threads that you just don't start raw newbie CBs and sit the long-time Captain for the opening road qualifier. Lot's of people made the same point in the weeks before the game. That was the big gamble JK took, a gamble he never laid the ground work for by testing Gonzo (or Besler) in the multiple prior friendlies when the opportunities were available. To you last point, I think you are right that JK views his bench in a fundamentally different way than Bob Bradley did. JK wants replaceable parts on the bench. Guys with the same qualities as the starters, who can step in as fresh legs, but perform largely the same tasks. BB had a better mix on the bench -- a couple of replaceable parts, but also some different kinds of parts to do different things. That's why BB liked Feilhaber so much and why he was so patient with Adu over the years, in spite of Adu's weak club career. That's why he took mix-and-match forwards like Buddle, Gomez, and Findley to the Cup, so that he could have a power guy, a clever finisher, and a speed/hustle guy depending on the situation. That doesn't seem to be Klinsi's method most of the time.
Yup. I think the Boca versus Gonzo gamble by Klinsmann was made with a long-term view. At some point that transition needed to be made, and he decided to start now. Boca's not exactly in great form and match-fitness either. So basically JK sacrificed some cohesion and experience in the short term for bigger and better things in the future. [In theory] That's going to be our back 4 throughout the hex, and possibly thru WC14. Just my feeling....................... And yes, we should have gotten some cohesion with this group before yesterday. But Chandler's waffling and Gonzo's injury precluded that from happening. As far as Edu versus Williams................that's 6 of one 1/2 a dozen of the other for me. As far as the bench and squad players go, I think Klinsmann can be criticized on that. Everybody and his brother on these boards think we need more width and more speed. I would have been happy to have guys like Gatt on the bench. But you know............Sacha Kljestan is playing at a pretty high level. We weren't bringing in scrubs. It was just guys that aren't "game changers." Perhaps "game changers" don't exist in our pool.
JK's kind of stuck with this choice now. He has to come right back with the same back 4 vs Costa Rica. If he took the gamble at Honduras, then he has to follow through now and keep blooding this back-4, and live or die by the results. No turning back.
Ummm. The problem with youth development in this country is that our inferiority complex allowed anyone with a British accent to get jobs as youth soccer coaches, regardless of training or background. I'm not saying we should "keep it in the family". In fact, most of the guys on my wish list for coach were foreign. That said, we should just give a guy a job because he has a cool sounding Euro accent.
He is. I would have preferred the Honduras game to have had a designated 6 to protect the new central defenders. Short of doing that, he could have blooded the youngster in Costa Rica.
This post definitely raises that level of idiocy considering how both Onyewu and Edu were born and raised in the US and Feilhaber moved here when he was 6. If you can't understand the fundamental difference between those situations and the Chandler, Williams, Johnson, Jones, Boyd situations, then may God have mercy on your soul. That said, I have no problem with Fabian. I think he's the best addition to our player pool in as long as I can remember. Not just because he fills a position that has been a black hole for the US since the dawn of time, but also because of his technical ability. Danny Williams is just awful. He's had 2 semi-palatable performances in a US jersey. And I really don't understand the love affair with Jones on these boards. He is a lesser version of Michael Bradley, and his inclusion in the lineups is simple redundancy. I don't mind having him on the team for depth, but he is so freaking inconsistent.
But do you agree with choice? I do. I think that right now this is our best back 4. Dolo is aging quickly and is more and more injury prone. He can still be the backup. In the center we do have a couple of young options, but I personally think the Cameron/Gonzalez combo is the way to go for now. And Johnson may be the best left back we've had in a long time. Just stick with those 4 and Howard, and let them gain confidence together for the rest of the Hex (barring a clear need to replace somebody due to a horrid performance level.) For me Williams is the clear Germerican that needs to be replaced. Jones needs to up his game. Johnson and Chandler are good, and will improve with more experience at this level. We need to remember how few games a guy like Chandler has played at the international level. You can't prepare yourself for travelling to a 3rd world garbage dump to play a critical game in a jungle at noon in front of the most rabid fans out there.