why not Gomez?

Sure, I totally agree that folks should be careful. Indeed, that's what started my recent replies, as a response to a poster who somewhat rashly opined that Altidore has trouble scoring for the US. Trouble compared to what?

The stats don't show that Jozy is an internationally elite scoring machine. They do show that he is a capable scorer, especially for a 21 year old, and especially compared to US historical scoring records.

Maybe he's benefited from having Dempsey and Donovan as teammates. But then a lot of international strikers have far better teammates than Dempsey and Donovan, but don't consistantly put Jozy's stats to shame.

Maybe he's played weaker opponents. But Holland has played San Marino and Moldova 4 times in the last year. Spain has faced Lichtenstein and Lithuania 4 times in 12 months. Germany has had to battle Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan 4 times recently. Euro qualifying pits the elite against minnows all the time.

I don't know how anyone can say that the highest-scoring 21 year old in US international soccer history has a scoring problem. Compared to what? Be careful with such absolute opinions unsupported by any facts.

 

Jozy's scoring rate aside, my issue is this: People keep talking about Gomez's scoring rate, but the issue is not with our strikers finishing chances. The issue is that we haven't been creating those chances to begin with. Gomez isn't ever involved in the process of creating chances - he's involved in finishing them. So if we're not creating chances for Gomez, what good is he?

A great example is the Ghana match of 2010. Altidore had been involved in some good chances and was giving the Ghanaian defense issues during the second half. At the end of regulation, Bob Bradley decided to remove Altidore and replace him with Gomez. Gomez wasn't involved in a single chance the USA created in extra time.

ZonalMarking.Net put it the best way in this article: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/06/26/ghana-2-1-united-states-tactics/

Now, Altidore may have been missing chances, but at least he was getting chances, and clearly worrying the Ghana defence. Gomez may be a better option in front of goal, but the US suddenly had less of a direct route when building attacks, something they naturally looked for as extra-time went on. This problem was compounded by the fact that Donovan was looking tired and miscontrolled a couple of times, and so more intelligent build-up play was tricky.

The part that gets me the most is actually what it says at the end about Donovan. With him seemingly out of comission, it would have been up to the striker to make chances, and that's not part of Gomez's game.

If the USA were creating chances and Altidore simply weren't finishing them, then I'd be all for Gomez replacing him in the starting XI, but that's not the case. Altidore has actually created plenty of chances himself.

 

I think you are being way too defensive. Chill out a bit. I never said he has a scoring problem. Maybe others did, but I think you've overreacted a bit to my post just asking for some statistics.

I completely agree Jozy has done well, and has a very good, if not excellent strike rate for a 21 year old international.

However, my point was simply the AVERAGE quality he faces I would guess is lower. Sure there are the Azerbaijans, Moldovas, etc. of the world that those other guys face. But on average, I'd bet the other guys you compared Jozy to have faced a higher quality of opponent. That's all.

Again. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but saying Holland has played San Marino and Moldova or whoever doesn't disprove my hypothesis. Nor does answer my question on what is the average quality of opponent Kuyt or others have faced.

 

So your argument is we should get Eddie Johnson to start all of our games? Because that worked out so well, right?

So Jozy's won the golden boot, right? He lead MLS in scoring I'm pretty sure, and then he went to Europe and did well in La Liga, and scored tons of goals in the EPL as well, right? Oh wait - you're only looking at one stat to prove your point, not looking at his whole career which says he can score goals, but not in bunches.

Look, I respect your opinion Mr Martin - you generally seem to know what you are talking about. But I don't agree with you here, and I'm not sure why Jozy's age matters in this discussion. While it's cool that he has accomplished a lot for a young man, it should still come down to who is currently playing the best and producing the most.

Right now we have an opportunity to give other players looks.

 

I may have come across as too defensive. But there was no intention of grouping you as a critic of Altidore as a poor scorer.

I was trying to clarify that I agreed with your point about being careful, and that I had been replying to someone who wasn't being careful, but was giving a strong, unsupported opinion.

 

Did I claim that EJ should be looked at after his handful of consecutive mediocre years? Obviously not. Strawman.

Only looking at one stat? I'm looking at his whole career for the US Nats, the most relevant points regarding his performance for the US Nat's. And I'm comparing it to the whole careers of the best scorers in US history. That's the opposite of one stat.

Sarcastic comments about Jozy's ups and downs as a young pro prove nothing as to his ability to put the ball in the net for the team that this forum is about.

I have no problem taking a look at other forwards during friendlies. In general, I think JK hasn't tested enough different players at many positions during the friendlies. In particular earlier in this thread, I agreed that Gomez deserves a callup.

But why trash-talk Jozy and claim the guy is a poor scorer? A poor scorer doesn't accomplish the things Altidore has at such a young age. A poor scorer doesn't exceed multiple long-time US veterans. Is your point to knock him down so that others look better?

Is Altidore a great international scorer? Hardly. Is he a good international scorer by all US historical standards. You bet. Would we still like to see other options tested? Sure.

 

None of those guys play in Concacaf. And not all of them are strikers. More useful comparison would be US stiker to US striker. Jozy has had better support and his numbers are underwhelming.

I agree but he won't be a 'youth' forever. So hopefully he figures it out.

Not everyone gets to play in Concacaf with a Fifa Young Player of the World Cup and a Confederations Bronze Ball Winner/UEFA Castrol top 60 player serving up balls.

Gomez and Buddle haven't been given proper recognition. Too many caps for the Eddie Johnsons, Altidores, and Agudelos of the pool for not enough production. I wish a player was given the opportunity to get consistent at club level before being ensconced as a automatic starter at international level. Nats coaches behave as though they're trying develop these guys. Let that take place at club level.

 

Why not Gomez (or Buddle)? -> Because we have seen him play for the USMNT and his performance level has not been adequate for tough matches. Given his age, he is unlikely to get good enough to allow the USMNT to get where we want it to go, which at this stage in the cycle should be what caps are for.

Why Gomez (or Buddle) -> Other than Altidore (who has performed well for the USMNT and plays at a higher level than either of these guys), we don't have any options that have demonstrated that they are good enough even for the basic CONCACAF level. With qualifiers coming up, it might be time to look for guys who can help us NOW and these two guys might be our best shot to get through qualifiers.

Bottom line: Give caps now to guys who might actually develop into players that are good enough at the level the USMNT aspires to, but recognize that the time is fast approaching where we may have to settle for these guys.

 

The implication here is that Jozy is getting great service and is not converting them. The reality is far from that.

If you llok at games from the Gold Cup to now, Jozy has created far more chances than he has been given including 2 inside the box sitters that were missed. One to Wondo and one to Shea.

How many of these has he got served and missed?
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWMB432eWac"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWMB432eWac[/ame]
The american strike force will become more productive when we get playmakers who can get the strikers the ball in scoring positions.

 

Altidore scored 1 or 2 goals in a full season in the EPL. That's a relevant statistic that you conveniently ignore.

Regardless, I'm not sure that statistics should be the end all be-all. If they were, then EJ would be the greatest forward we ever had, but I'm not sure everyone here would agree with that statement.

I'm sorry that I offended you by posting my honest opinion that I don't rate Jozy as a goal-scorer. He is physical and he is exciting to watch and he can generate chances, but I don't put him in the same category as guys who score goals in bunches.

 

Eddie Johnson's goal rate for the US senior team in 1 in 4. He has to my count, 7 goals in 60 games in Europe. Not sure how the statistics make him the greatest forward we ever had. Especially when McBride had 30 goals in slightly short of 100 games, scored 45 goals in 150 odd games in Europe. and even Altidore has 6 goals in just about 60 games and 12 in 42 for the US team.

 

Diego Forlan (tied-1st, 5 goals) was 31 at the 2010 WC; Miroslav Klose (tied-2nd, 4 goals) was 32 at the 2010 WC. Hakan Yakin (tied-2nd, 3 goals) was 31 at the 2008 Euros. Crespo, Ronaldo, Zidane at WC2006. Larsson at Euro2004. The most famous old guy performance of course is Roger Milla at WC1990.

 

I geuss my finalizing comment is that players like Gomez who simply put themselves in good positions and finish the chances given to them still have a place in the game and probably always will. However, the issue currently is not with the USA's strikers not finishing chances. The USA's midfield hasn't really been creating those chances. So for now, the focus should be on how we're gonna create those chances. Then, if Jozy isn't finishing them, we can bring in a guy like Gomez. Even with that said, I still find that Jozy is more advantageous even when not finishing because his attributes help us create chances like in the Ghana game, using his size, speed, strength, hold-up play, and aerial ability to trouble their backline and exploit/create space.

 

We should have, based on the number of clear offensive chances we created. A big number of those were due to Jozy working them like a speedbag.

 

Didn't Gomez play all of extra time in the Ghana game if im not mistaken?

 

According to Wikipedia he came in as a sub for Jozy in the 91' min.

Okay, gotta go watch the Galaxy vs NYRB game!

 

First off, Gomez ended up playing for the whole of extra time during that match and didn't get squat done. Moreover, I don't believe Gomez would have even created that chance anyways. He just doesn't have the physical tools or skills to create chances for himself, or others for that matter, hence the lack of chances in extra time. He's a finisher, plain and simple - when he doesn't have teams spoon feeding him chances, he's useless. That's why Jozy is a better option in my mind. He doesn't need a whole lot to create a chance( dusting Jamie Carragher like an old record in the England game), and he doesn't need to score goals to have an impact on the game. Same can be said for other hated strikers like Brian Ching and Robbie Findley.

 

No, we didn't. Your focus seems to be on the end result. The win. The goal. We can't just skip steps. We must set up out team tactically to give us a better chance at winning/scoring goals/not conceding goals. Gomez is great in front of goal, but the argument still stands that he doesn't have the physical or technical tools to create/exploit chances/spaces for himself or others. Just about all of the chances Jozy got and missed at the World Cup he helped create himself, whether it be through his skills or athletic gifts. Again, like ZonalMarking.net said, Jozy may be missing chances, but at least he was GETTING chances. Gomez didn't make a single one the whole thirty minutes he was out there against Ghana.

 

Gomez did help get the US a corner at the end of the game.

 

Well I was talking clear-cut chances, but I suppose given our notoriety from set-pieces ( particularly after the Slovenia game), that should count.

 

Thats what I thought, Gomez started the extra time. I think they said Jozy picked up a knock, maybe he was just fatigued. We could have used him. He caused the Ghana defense fits in the second half.