why not Gomez?

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by bct81, Oct 17, 2011.

  1. bct81

    bct81 Member+

    multiple (DC United, Dortmund, Arsenal, Leeds....)
    United States
    Mar 17, 2007
    moving around the US every few years ....
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    does anyone really care how the goal looks?

    does it matter if they run faster, shoot harder or telepathically know where to be?

    all that matters for a striker is one of three things in order

    scoring with regularity
    assisting with regularity
    pressuring the opposition defense into making mistakes

    nothing in that says - were they tactical, how fast were they, how big they are, how hard they shoot ...
     
  2. EL MONO MARIO

    EL MONO MARIO Member

    Apr 9, 2002
    Montevideo, Uruguay
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Originally Posted by TheNearPost View Post
    Herculez Gomez and Chris Wondolowski don't do either of the above things. Their strength lies in their ability to finish chances, not helping create them.

    You want MORE players to create?????????????????????????' We have over two dozen midfielder and a forward who, holds up the ball, (Jozy and Agudelo) I want someone who can score a FING goal for the US already.. PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE:eek::D
     
  3. babieca

    babieca Member

    Jul 12, 2009
    Charlotte, NC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    this.
     
  4. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

    May 21, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    This is all fair. If anything, the fact that they've been scoring for teams that don't have ace attacking midfielders is more of a tribute to their abilities as poachers.
    I am so SICK of this kind of comment. These guys get PAID to put the ball in the back of the net - Of COURSE they don't give a f*** how it happens.

    My point is that the coach can't just disregard tactics when he thinks of how to get the ball in the back of the net, as well as how to keep it out of his own. He ( or she, for that matter) has to construct his team carefully in order to do so. The only stat for getting your tactics right is wins. It's not always right, but if a coach puts his pieces in the right place, then he's at least giving himself a chance.

    Right, cause it's not like Jozy has been scoring goals for a fairly good team in a fairly good league/competition(s) AND been delivering the hold-up play and speed to open up defenses.
     
  5. mannycoon

    mannycoon Member

    May 13, 2009
    I don't think you can really group Gomez and Wondolowski together, Gomez is a scoring at a higher rate against a higher level of competition and is doing so in a role (off bench) that we really need, he's also scored a few in limited time for the national team. At this point I think he's a pretty obvious call up when he's in form. Scoring in MLS like Wondolowski however isn't nearly as impressive, as shown by the long time of MLS scorers who were never great at the national team level.

    With Agudelo, he is obviously currently behind many more established players in current ability, the question with him is more whether it is worth giving him experience as a prospect, rather than player someone a little better now.
     
  6. Pl@ymaker

    Pl@ymaker Member+

    Feb 8, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Jozy hasn't been scoring for the 1 team that matters.
     
  7. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Shea has been playing well for the 1 team that matters.
     
  8. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

    May 21, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    The one team that matters hasn't exactly been making chances aplenty now has it? At least not for Jozy. He hasn't really missed any blatant chances in the Klinsmann era, and the team hasn't really created any...
     
  9. Pl@ymaker

    Pl@ymaker Member+

    Feb 8, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't agree with this anymore. Jozy doesn't score because his positioning and finishing are poor.
     
  10. Pl@ymaker

    Pl@ymaker Member+

    Feb 8, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Who the hell is talking about Shea??
     
  11. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

    May 21, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    What chances has he had to finish? There have been none. And, for the most part, Jozy's movement has been much improved. You could have made that argument before, but Jozy has showed work rate and mobility that we haven't seen out of him before in both of the previous two internationals.

    Once we replace Daniel Williams with Landon Donovan, and Maurice Edu with someone more competent in the final third( Jones, Kljestan, Diskerud, Torres once he gets off injury), we should start making more chances.
     
  12. Pl@ymaker

    Pl@ymaker Member+

    Feb 8, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I sure hope you're right.
     
  13. bct81

    bct81 Member+

    multiple (DC United, Dortmund, Arsenal, Leeds....)
    United States
    Mar 17, 2007
    moving around the US every few years ....
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Two goals in five games ... And yes we have created some chances that have not been finished. The only ultimate tactic is the score line and JK needs to shake it up.

    No Jozy has not been scoring goals for a fairly good team in a fairly good league - at least not in comparison with Gomez. Yes he is finishing more than Juan. The numbers just don't lie.

    You see up till the last month or so I would agree with you till I started looking at statistics instead of what I wanted to see in terms of apparent talent. And that is when I started to really wonder about Gomez. It is not just now - based on his historical numbers he also should have been the first one off the bench for Bradley - unless we were already leading and looking for a defensive sub.

    Gomez is leading the entire FMF in goals per minute. He is not just scoring. Now Estudiantes is not in first place and that is not Herc's fault. But he puts himself in position to score and does it with regularity. Against Santos he scored on his first chance in the fourth minute and on his third chance in the fifteenth minute.

    Here is a homework assignment - go back and look at shots on goal stats when he and Jozy were on the field together at the world cup. For that half of a game Herc got off a bunch of shots on goal - much more than Jozy. Maybe it is simple as age and experience - I don't know - Herc just seems to get it done.
     
  14. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

    May 21, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    If we have been creating chances that haven't been finished, they haven't been falling to Jozy. Brek's miss against Honduras ( which was created by Jozy) Donovan's miss against Costa Rica ( also created by Jozy, Shea doing most of the work), and Gooch's miss against Honduras are probably the most clear-cut examples of missed opportunities, and as you can see, Jozy didn't squander any of them. He did have one left-footed effort against Costa Rica, but that's all I can recall.

    You're right that the end all, be all is the scoreline, but you generally score/prevent goals by getting your tactics right; picking the right players, and then arranging them correctly


    I don't know what you'd call the Eredivisie, then. Mexico isn't a bad a league, but they're not as good as the Dutch league. I suppose that's just an opinion that we can quack on about for as long as we want.

    Listen, all I'm hearing about is, " look at all these stats and the goals that Gomez is scoring - we can't possibly keep him off the field/roster"

    Most of the goals and chances that are coming Gomez's way are due to the effect of tactics on the game. I'm not saying tactics have to do with EVERYTHING that goes on, but you cannot disregard them when making team selections. Poachers like Gomez do well because the team around them is doing everything else from a tactical standpoint, so that all the poacher has to do is put himself in a good spot and do what he does best - finish. The problem is that you can't always afford to have a guy out there who just finishes the chances created for him. You have to contribute to the overall game plan. Obviously part of the game plan is to score and not be scored on, but you can't skip steps.

    My point is this: We need to worry about putting guys out there who create the path to goal, and block off the path to ours before we put someone out there who just finishes. In this day and age of soccer, tactics come before technique.
     
  15. Mr. Bandwagon

    Mr. Bandwagon Member

    Terremotos
    May 24, 2001
    the Barbary Coast
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Actually the scoring rate is not that different (read up) and the level of defense in Mexico is not any better than in MLS. Also Wondo is not a super sub, so expecting his goals/minute to compare exactly wouldn't be a fair comparison, just like expecting defenders to score as much as midfielders wouldn't be a fair comparison.

    So, disagree.
     
  16. Borrachin

    Borrachin Member+

    Feb 28, 2006
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So you prefer someone that contributes to the overall game plan over a player that does what he is there to do, score? The job of a striker is to score, if he can help in the midfield and some times on defense it is a plus, but his main job is to score. If he scores one, two or three times and is the laziest guy on the field, I do not care, because lately we had very hard workers that can't score and that leads to losing. You win with goals, not by working hard, you could be the hardest working team, but if you can't score, you can't win.
     
  17. Konut

    Konut Member+

    May 31, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One reason that I want to see Gomez is because he seems to put himself in the right position to score goals. You can argue all you want that Jozy wasn't even given these chances, but there are certain strikers around the world that help more in build up play and get themselves in a position to score (Messi, Rooney, etc.)

    Some strikers rely on service to score, while other strikers create service and positioning. It's debatable which is the better option, but I agree with the latter, and it seems like Klinsmann's system would too.
     
  18. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

    May 21, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    The reason we're not getting goals right now is not Jozy or any of our strikers for that matter. We could have had three in the Honduras friendly and that sure as hell would have shut a few people up about the lack of goals. The issue is that we haven't had Landon Donovan and Clint Dempsey on the field together. Moreover, Maurice Edu and Daniel Williams were unimpressive, at least from an attacking sense. Like I said, Donovan in for Williams and somone like Jones, Torres, Kljestan, or even Diskerud in for Edu, and we see more chances created. I'm not talking about work rate - I'm talking about players simply contributing to an overall game plan/tactic. The two can be different.

    Yes, the job of a striker is to score, but as I've stated, the job of a coach is to devise his tactics so that there is a path to goal. Once the path to goal is created, THEN we worry about who is going to finish the actual chance.

    And to be honest, I'm not necessarily saying Gomez couldn't work, I just don't like the idea that people think he's going to be automatic goals( and that Jozy automatically isn't). Tactics, in most cases, play a huge part in creating the path to the goals. Right now, we need to worry about creating the path to goals, because that is an issue. Finishing them hasn't been the fault of our strikers - most of the the chances have fallen the way of our midfielders, who have failed to find the net save for twice in the past five matches.
     
  19. Mr. Bandwagon

    Mr. Bandwagon Member

    Terremotos
    May 24, 2001
    the Barbary Coast
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Jozy's lack of goals scored has been a problem for him for his entire USMNT career. I don't rate him as a goal-scorer, period. It's not that we were missing Landon for a few games.
     
  20. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    True, but you can only grade a striker on his kill rate which is goals / chances. Jozy has not been getting any chances. In fact his last 2 goals scored for the USMNT would not even have counted as real chances. He mmade those on his own.

    Compare that to Shea who missed a 6 foot bunny created by Jozy or Williams who mised a left footer inside the top of the box and a right footer just inside the box off a sweet perfectly weighted pass from Edu.
     
  21. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

    May 21, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    It's true that Jozy hasn't always done well in front of goal, but that was when he was getting chances. Now he is barely getting anything, and, in fact, has been involved in creating some of the best chances of these first five matches. We can continue to lop the blame on to Altidore for the lack of goals/chances, or we can realize that lack of quality in the midfield is what we should be blaming. Brek Shea has been dangerous, and Dempsey his usual innovative self, but we've lacked inspiration from the central midfield, and Daniel Williams really looks out of place on the right.
     
  22. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

    Jun 12, 2002
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How in the world do you come to such a conclusion? It boggles the mind.

    Jozy has 12 goals for the USA, tied for 12th all-time*.

    At age 21, Jozy is the youngest US player to reach 12 international goals.

    His 12 goals in 43 games = 1 goal every 3.6 matches. Better than top 12 all-time players such as Joe-Max Moore (1 every 4.2 matches), Bruce Murray (4.1), Beasley (5.6), Stewart (5.9), Jones (10.9), Perez (5.6), and Mathis (3.8). He's also ahead of other strikers like Ching (4.1) and Wolff (5.8).

    The only top scorers with a better strike rate are Donovan (1 goal every 3.0 matches), Wynalda (3.1), McBride (3.2), Dempsey (3.5), Johnson (3.5!), and Klopas (3.3).



    * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_men's_national_soccer_team_(player_statistics)#Goals
     
  23. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    1 in every 3.6 is pretty underwhelming for a striker who has had the opportunity to play consistently with Donovan and Dempsey. Pity McBride didn't get that kind of support consistently.

    Altidore is young. He's got that much going for him. I'd like to see US stop over promoting these young guys though.
     
  24. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

    Jun 12, 2002
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You're going to try and minimize the stats? Really?

    Jozy's international strike rate is a fraction below players like Fernando Torres (3.3), Robinho (3.5), and Kuyt (3.4); all guys with far superior teammates to work with than Donovan and Dempsey. He's better than Tevez (4.8). A guy like Holland's Ryan Babel (5 goals in 40 Caps = 8.0 rate) doesn't rate compared to Jozy. Heck, Jozy's statistically "equal" to Messi, of all people (3.6) -- not that I'm saying anything about Jozy being as good as Messi.

    Just that one cannot take for granted how easy it is to score internationally. Jozy's done pretty darn well, better than any US Under-21 ever. For what it is worth, he's our youth Gold Standard, and ahead of a lot of good US veteran forwards.

    Not everyone can have an internationally, historically elite strike rate like Klose (1.8!!), Van Nistelrooy (2.0), or Mario Gomez (2.3).


    Sure, it would be nice to take things more slowly with young players. But that's sort of up to the older players, who have to prove the roster spots belong to them over the kids. Generally, the US vets haven't gotten it done, and you can't blame the kids for that.

    Plus, my reply wasn't about over-promoting Altidore, but in response to a poster who thought the opposite -- that Altidore has a consistant scoring problem (ie., under-promoting, or selling short) for the US. An opinion which the facts prove wrong.
     
  25. giffenbone

    giffenbone Member

    Jan 22, 2006
    Raleigh, NC
    I'd be a bit careful. While Jozy's strike rate does fall where you say it does compared to these players, if you look at the average level of opponent he's scored on and the average level of opponent he's played against, I'd be willing to bet both those numbers probably pale in comparison to the rest. Shame on me for not doing the research myself (don't have the time right this minute), but something to consider as another factor as to why his strike rate is similar to these other players, rather than attributing it all to player skill alone. I'll rep anyone who can look those stats up for me.

    This is just my thought on why Jozy's strike rate may be so close to these other players. Not taking anything away from Jozy, but I feel strike rate isn't the full story (and you admit yourself that when you compare Jozy to Messi) :)

    I'm happy to let the statistics prove me wrong on that point if it is the case.
     

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