why not Gomez?

My point is you have to look at a bit more than just the club production numbers. There are things about Gomez and Wondo that indicate they won't be successful at the international level.

If you look at guys like Ante Razov, Taylor Twellman, Jeff Cunningham, they all had years where they put up big goal scoring numbers. Better than Brian McBride ever put up in MLS. But McBride had certain exceptional attributes that made him a better bet for success at the international level and in a higher league such as the EPL.

What I'm saying is that Altidore, Agudelo and Sapong have attributes that make them more likely to succeed at a higher level than Gomez and Wondo, notwithstanding the success those two have had in recent years at club level.

I'll elaborate a little. To me strikers succeed because they have one of three outstanding attributes. But in addition they can't be below average in the others. Those three attributes (dimensions) are:

1) The combination of a soccer IQ that allows them to find small areas where the defense is weak combined with the ability to shoot quickly and accurately when presented with opportunities.

2) Exceptional quickness, both with and without the ball.

3) Power. Simply put the size and strength to overpower a defender--sometimes in the air, sometimes while holding the ball.

Wondo and Gomez have plenty of 1. I wish we could transplant some of it to Altidore and Agudelo. McBride had plenty of 1 too. But McBride was also much more powerful than Wondo and Gomez. And I think he was quicker than Wondo. Wondo is below average in 2 and 3. I don't think any forward can be so great along dimension 1 that he can afford to be below average in 2 and 3 and still succeed at the international level. Gomez is a bit quicker, but not exceptionally so. And he is below average in terms of power.

Now consider guys like Altidore, Agudelo and Sapong. I'd argue that they have an exceptional combination of 2 and 3. I think Altidore is ahead of the others in dimension 1. I know it is commonly believed around here that he lacks savvy, experience, decision-making smarts, etc. But I think he's been underrated in terms of these qualities even a couple years ago. He's certainly not in a class with Donovan and Dempsey (or Wondo for that matter) in terms of soccer IQ. But I think he is pretty good and ahead of Agudelo and Sapong, and this is part of the reason he starts.

Agudelo and Sapong are very early in their professional careers. I think given their inexperience they actually give evidence of having pretty good soccer IQs and will pick up more with experience.

Anyhow, this rambling note gives an idea of why I'm happier seeing guys like Altidore, Agudelo and Sapong get callups and PT than guys like Gomez and Wondo.

 

Ok, correct me if I'm wrong. You prefer to continue giving more minutes to young guys so that they can eventually/hopefully start scoring goals than to give opportunity to maybe someone else stepping up to the challenge. Does it mean they will do good, not really, but we have to have 4-5 options, not just only Jozy and Juan. I really don't care if we play 4-6-0 as long as that ball touches the net, inside the net, not outside!

 

I have no disagreement with this. My point is that the ball is more likely to touch the inside of the net with the likes of Altidore, Agudelo or Sapong playing than the likes of Wondo or Gomez, and my prior post explains my reasoning. We are in agreement with respect to objectives, but not means.

The title of the thread is Why Not Gomez? Maybe I am being too literal in giving my opinion on the topic and throwing in my deux sous on Wondo for good measure.

 

Fixed your post:

I call BS. You are obsessed with having big, strong strikers up top even if they haven't proven they can score consistently at any level: See Agueledo and now, for some unknown reason, you're proferring Sapong.

It takes all physical types. See: Gary Lineker, Chicharito, Inzaghi, Suarez. None of whom have the power you describe. Some of whom have some of the quickness you describe. All of whom have one thing in common: they score goals.

I want someone who can score goals and someone who has shown they can do it. Right now, only Gomez and Wondo would appear to the only two in the pool besides Dempsey and Donovan who are doing it consistently.

 

I just want Klinsman to look at more players and get them in camp and then he can decide. If jozy and Juan and whoever end up being best for the team then it is what it is, but they shouldn't be set in stone going forward, we should always have different options.

 

I think some explanation needs to be offered from those advocating Gomez or Wondo that attempts to build a case as to why they will do better at the international level than other physically limited players who did well at the club level. What seperates those two from Ante Razov or Taylor Twellman or Conor Casey?

Btw, I think Wondo's teammate, Steve Lenhart, has more of a chance at international success, but he is a long-shot too.

 

Don't change the subject! I made the point that you don't need all three of your supposed necessary traits to succeed at the international level. You just need to score goals. It's your turn to refute my argument.
If your attempt to refute is citing to Razov et al, I'd counter that all of those players got an extended chance to prove themselves with the nats. (Twellman got 29 caps, Razov - 25, and Casey 19. Wondo and Gomez haven't really been given that opportunity. Wondo has 5. Gomez has 8).That's, in part, I'd argue, because too many people look at Altidore and Aguledo and see what they could be instead of what they are. People look at Wondo and Gomez and don't see what they are because they want them to be someone else.

If you really believe this you are helping me to win the argument.

 

I would agree you don't need all three. I think you need to be well above average in one of them and not be below average in both the other two. The wording in my initial post might have been ambiguous and led to some misinterpretation. It read:

To me strikers succeed because they have one of three outstanding attributes. But in addition they can't be below average in the others.

I should have inserted the word both in there. Can't be below average in both of the others. The interesting case of Inzaghi was brought up. Certainly I think we can all agree that he has an abundance of the first quality that I mentioned. But less well known is that Inzaghi is extremely quick. Over two or three steps he has world class acceleration or did during the early and middle parts of his career. Other strikers with a similar recipe for success include Romario and Bebeto--clever, quick, darting, relatively small players.

I don't think Gomez or Wondo has that kind of quickness over short distances. I have a recollection of reading that Wondo was an outstanding middle distance runner in high school or college. That seems about right from watching him play. He has an excellent workrate and seems to do a lot of damage at the end of each half. By the way I live in Northern California and have attended several Quakes games in the past couple of years. What he does not have is above average quickness. In fact I will go so far as to say Wondo has below average quickness (within the context of forwards at the international level). Gomez is quicker but not as quick as he was when he was younger and before he had knee surgery. And neither is the kind of powerful player who can overpower a defender.

The international market for soccer talent has its inefficiencies like any other market, but I think it is telling that there has been significantly more interest from European clubs for Altidore, Agudelo, and I predict Sapong in a year or two than in Wondo. Gomez of course has played in Mexico and I give him credit for that since it is a stronger league than MLS. But I wouldn't expect much interest in his services from a team in a strong European league. The interest in players like Wondo and Gomez is similar to the interest that the Razovs, Twellmans, Cunninghams have had in their careers. Mainly from weaker European countries or the second divisions of stronger countries. Actually so far there has been no interest for those two from Europe that I know of. But I could see some developing given their club success in the past two years and I would expect it to be at the level discussed above.

 

Nope. The one "memorably good opportunity" was not a very good opportunity. Alitdore hit it high, hard and behind him from very close range, making it a difficult finish. Bad service by Altidore and who get's sat? Wondo.

Wondo only has a couple of caps to his name so scoring rate is not worth comparing. Strikers are also streaky, so calling in a guy who is currently hot makes sense. Wondo's two call ups were in the offseason (when MLSers hadn't played a competitive match in 4 months) and in the Gold Cup (when he was not in great form).

Right now he is on a hot streak, so of course he probably won't get called up.

 

Or look at the last two years:

2010 - 18 goals
2011 - 15 goals (with 2 games remaining, plus he was out for the month of June on Gold Cup duty)

No one in the entire USMNT pool can touch that kind of production.

 

I agree that both Herc and Wondo are basically really good at finishing and maybe aren't as good at playing other roles like holding up the ball or w/e. The thing is, we aren't scoring goals, and when we do, it's often from the midfielders. I think this is a personnel issue. If we want to fix it we need to bring in guys who score goals.

 

The fact that Brian McBride no longer plays international soccer.

Remember that Twellman was still a fringe national teamer when he his injuries began to pile up. Casey (in addition to Ching) only lost his place to Buddle and Gomez's explosions, correctly I feel.

And as far as "physically limited"...

A. Wondolowski is nothing if not physically gifted. His main talent is his work rate and determination to get into good positions...where his slow soccer brain and iffy touch all too often let him down at the international level.

B. Gomez is pretty quick. Not as much as he was in his Galaxy days, but still better at running the channels and getting to balls than just about anybody in the pool except maybe Findley right now.

Even if he is "physically limited", I haven't exactly seen Juan Agudelo and Edson Buddle brutally imposing themselves on opposition center halves in the recent friendlies.

At least Herc can actually score sometimes.

 

Indeed, we are talking about small samples when dissecting the national team data of all three of Wondo, Gomez, and Agudelo. Buddle too for that matter. Ideally, they would all have 30 or more starts and then we could start having some comfort with the national team stats. As for the club stats, I think they need to be viewed with quite a bit of skepticism given the prolific MLS scorers--Twellman, Razov, Cunningham, Casey--who have had a hard time getting going at the international level. And with some of those guys we do have a decent sample size of national team matches.

 

Here's the thing. You are saying Wondow and Herc = guys who do well in MLS or w/e but not on the international level, i.e. Kreis. I think that's lazy. Not everyone at the international level is a McBride. There are gifted strikers with great scoring rates who aren't huge or amazing athletes. People also used to say that McBride was not cut out for the Nats. It was only because Arena kept playing hm that he came into his own and BigSoccer opinion reversed itself from calling him McFragile to making him a God. Of course no one will admit to it now.

If we don't give our best strikers a chance, they will never get there. I think talent is about more than just being a good athlete. Eddie Johnson's big deal was that he was a gifted athlete, but despite getting caps for years and years and years and having money thrown at him, he has essentially been a dud outside of one or two good stretches many years ago.

Right now the single-target Jozy thing is not accomplishing much. It's obvious we need to change the formation/personnel.

 

I'll cite an example of a recent play that explains why I prefer say Agudelo over Wondo or Gomez. It happened in the recent friendly against Mexico. It was the long pass he made to Rogers who then was taken down in what should have been a red card on the Mexican player. Not so much the pass, but Agudelo's ability to beat the Mexican player to the ball, nod it past him with the other player putting a body on him and then accelerate past him. Wondo and Gomez would not have had a chance in that kind of 50-50 situation. Now it is unfair to cite a single play. There are situations where I'd rather have a Wondo or Gomez with the ball. But there are more where I prefer Altidore or Agudelo.

 

The answer to that one is kind of obvious imo.

 

Gomez is a super sub. Wondo is a starter. That's your difference.

Just look at goals scored - you don't need to worry about minutes. All games have the same number of minutes in them, and all goals scored count for the same whether you scored them in a short appearance or as a starter. Besides, I think Herc should also be getting call ups. Not sure about Juan Agudelo anymore. And I'm not sure Jozy should be a lock to start every match.

 

How many chances would you like to see given to Gomez and Wondo. And how many matches per year do you think the Nats play.

 

So, the only way to get the stats for guys like Wondo and Herc is to, you know, give them caps. That's my point.

I'm not sure Wondo will ever produce for the USMNT, but it's disappointing that he isn't even given much consideration by the coach (or by fans who don't like in northern Cal ).

 

When someone (Altidore) isn't producing, I would open up the position to competition. It's a pretty simple concept.