Discussion in 'FIFA and Tournaments' started by Jason Tilt, Jul 12, 2012.
They now have a competent coach.
WTF? It's only a year-and-a-half away. No reason to suspect that Iniesta will be much worse than he is right now at the end of next season.
Xavi is a question-mark, but his style probably means that he will age slowly. Much like Pirlo.
That same history was against Spain in 2012. Such a statement doesn't make any logical or mathematical sense. It's also a bit superstitious.
The fact is, Spain has many good, young players just like Germany and Brazil. They could make themselves young like Brazil and Germany if they wanted to, but they just haven't needed to since Xavi, Villa, Iker, Iniesta (if you consider Iniesta old), etc continue to perform at a high level.
How has the team that is cruising in WC qualifying improved over the one that almost did not qualify? Is that your question?
Seriously though, while its true they still possess many of the same weaknesses as back in 2010, at the same time, they were a very young team in 2010. People forget because guys like Aguero, Di Maria, Higuain and even Messi have been big names for a while, but they were still just 22-23 in 2010. So not until the next World Cup would they reach their prime.
whoever wins it, so many things we say could mean nothing by summer/winter 2014. We all know who has a chance but if I had to pick teams to surprise itd be either Colombia or Mexico. Especially Colombia which is in fine form, and Falcao has established himself IMO as the best 9 in the world and could have an impact similar to Diego Forlans in the last Copa, with the insane yet talented Teo as his running mate.
Iniesta is 28 years old its not like hes getting any better at that age, he can only get worse. He will be 30 years old in 2014 World Cup so I wouldn't consider that too old but its not really an age where a player is in top form. This will be the last World Cup for Iniesta just like 2010 was the last one for Xavi, Puyol and David Villa (Casillas)... Those 4 players were the ones that carried Spain to win 2010 and I just dont see them doing it again... David Villa scored a lot for them.
Remember once your on top you can only go down.
Right now Brazil is the type of team that can win 2014 World Cup and again in 2018, because they have the best young players, Germany and Spain dont match in young players... From 2014-2018 im very sure Neymar will be the best player in the world and Oscar will probably be one of the best midfielders in the world.
As for Argentina going to the final thats all depends on Messi, otherwise Germany has a good shot at it with Spain being behind.
Weather it is this World Cup or next world cup I know that Neymar will win a world cup for Brazil and then become one of the best players ever.
spain or brazil for me.
would pick spain outright but brazil on home soil should be a handful for anyone.
i expect an impressive looking germany to be there in the latter stages but some sort of andy murray like mental breakthrough is needed on their part....maybe ditch jogi loew for ivan lendl.
despite the hype argentina hasnt come close in over 20 years now but i do believe they have a pretty decent shot this time.
if there's another serie A match fixing scandal then italy's in with a shout as well.
while i'm not expecting mexico or japan to win they do look like 2 nations that are headed in the right direction.
Messi has improved alot with Argentina this year, he has 12 goals in 8 games just in 2012... With Messi being fully in his prime during 2014 World Cup I do think they have a chance to make the final its just Argentina have weak defense so thats holding them back... Imagine if Messi does what Maradona did back in 1986, but I dont see them beating Brazil.
Agreed Messi has improved in leaps and bounds for his national team, but to put this in perspective Messi's record in official games isn't anywhere as good (although still very impressive). Messi has scored 7 goals in 9 qualifying games for Argentina (Higuain scored as much, but in 8 games).
I also mentioned Higuain also just to stress that the Argentinian problem will not be attack, but defence and link up between formations. I still don't see Argentina beating a well organized attacking team like Germany, Spain, Brasil or maybe even teams like Italy or Portugal.
Plus it remains to be seen if Messi can really step up on the big international stage.
It never ceases to amaze me how Spain, who continue to win everything, are easily written off. Meanwhile Argentina, who haven't gotten close to winning anything in a long time, are so often touted as favorites.
For me, Spain as the favorite with Italy, Brazil, Argentina and Germany also having a chance. I would be shocked to see anyone else.
Casillas will only be 33 in 2014 which is not a big deal for goalkeepers. There are many 'keepers performing right now who are close to 40.
I agree Puyol will be too old but they have guys to replace him with. Javi Martinez. Sergio Ramos is also improving with each passing year. And Jordi Alba would be an upgrade over their left-back in 2010. So overall defense and goalkeeping looks to be getting better, not worse.
Their only weakness appears to be striker. But considering they just beat Italy 4-nil without a proper striker, this is not a big concern.
Depends what you define as "young". If you mean guys under 21 right now I might agree. But for players aged 22-25, I think Germany and Spain have much more quality than Brazil.
Brazil will still be too young in 2014. It's a rebuilding time for Brazil which is why many people consider the current Brazil team one of the weakest ever.
Depends on the team, not just Messi.
You do remember the France game Spain just drew?
BTW If France win at home against Spain then whose to say Spain won't fail to qualify for 2014?
That's a big "if". And then Spain would still be solid favorites in the playoff round. Germany is in a similar position as Spain since they failed to win at home to Sweden.
I guess we are all just assuming the top teams will all qualify.
I don't think brazil has an advantage in young players at all, Spain has players who are still young like Mata, Busquets, Isco, Javi Martinez, Alba, De Gea, Alcantara, Munian, Rodrigo and Deulofeu, and guys who are still entering their primes like Cazorla, Silva and Cesc. Meanwhile Germany's still got multiple world cups with the likes of Ozil, Khedira, Reus, Gotze, Mueller, Hummels, Draxler, Kroos, Gundogan, Holtby, Schurrle and the Benders. I've been impressed by Oscar, and Neymar's certainly an excellent talent, but Brazil's youth doesn't mean that Spain and Germany don't have excellent youth as well.
That game only became one sided after Motta left with an injury.
Also... Fernando Torres (proper striker) was a big part of 2 of those goals.
I would say this is the best Brazil side since 2002 - if you don't know the players in this team there's not much I can say.
Best player in the world should make a difference
It's unlikely that Brazil wins the cup? It's unlikely that Brazil win the next cup? Considering they are the favorite for this one and will likely be for the next one also...
If Neymar is Brazil's top player for those 2.. it's very likely he'll be best in the world.
The game was already over when Torres came on. Besides, Spain played a good chunk of the tournament without a striker.
Anyway, even an older Villa in 2014 will probably be an upgrade over 2012 Torres.
It's not like Copa America 2011 was that long ago.
This team better than the one that had Ronaldinho and Kaka in their prime? You're having a laugh!
A difference, yes (nice moving of the goalposts). I'm saying though that he will need help from guys like Di Maria, the defense, etc.
It's unlikely that Neymar will become one of the greatest players ever.
I always laughed when they kept saying Torres was not a productive forward while when he was in the field for Spain all he did was produce. Torres came in at the end and 2 goals were added to the total.. you take 2 goals from that final result and the conversation would be, Italy got unlucky with the injury at 10 minutes of the second half.
Look at the roster, it already looks different.. 3 players that started against Paraguay are still on the team... Copa America 2011 was just another attempt to place Euro Players ahead of our Nat League... we had a total of 4 Nat league players on that roster plus 2 GKs. And you still wonder why it was a failure? Because I don't
2006 team was old, 2010 team had the highest avg age for any team in the WC. Does that sound like players in their primes? or players past their primes living off old glory?
Too young for us to call he's currently 21, if (big if) he win the next 2 cups and is the best player in the squad he'll absolutely be considered one of the best ever. But that's a huge if since nobody has done it since.. Pele....
That argument goes two ways... vide Argentina.
There's a reason why Italy made all 3 substitutions by the 55th minute. They were already in trouble and had to chance things up. The injury was not a game changer. When was the last time Spain blew a 2-goal lead?
Torres scored 3 goals, all 3 were in the two 4-nil blowouts Spain had. He wasn't that good or important to Spain winning the tournament.
I'm not going to read too much into friendly results. All I know is Neymar hasn't proved himself against the best defenders yet. Oscar looks decent but is nothing amazing at this point.
I was referring to the 2006 team. No, that team was not old. Kaka 24, Ronaldinho 26, Robinho 22, Ronaldo 29 (although Brazilians do tend to get fat, lazy and drop-off in quality in their late twenties.)
What big 'if'? Spain just got outplayed by France at home. France is at least odds even to win against Spain at home.
Naturally Spain will be favorites for the playoff round, but lets say they draw Croatia... ANything can happen over two legs.
It's a big "if" because France has no midfield. Yes, they pulled off one good result/small miracle against Spain but need an even better result in the re-match (or 0-0 draw).
Croatia would most likely be seeded in the playoff draw so Spain can't play them. Hungary, Bosnia, Norway, Montenegro... this is the caliber of opposition they would likely face.
But we are talking about a tournament 1.5 years away. IOW every prediction in this thread needs to contain the footnote "assuming they qualify" except when talking about Brazil.
Until Thiago left with an injury that game was not one sided at all, with Italy having 2 chances to score on the first 10 minutes.
now you know how I feel about Messi's role in Barcelona. Get huge numbers on blowouts.
International matches have the top defenders. He has proven himself against those time and time again. Libertadores has top defenders. He has proven himself against those time and time again. Brazilian National League has top defenders. He has proven himself against those time and time again.
There's a reason Four Four Two Magazine just published the top 20 prospects and left Neymar out. They put players from Brazil like Oscar, Lucas and Damiao.. but left the similar age Neymar out... that's because he's not a prospect anymore, people already know what he is. But he does seem to have a huge following of haters.
that team had 2 problems... first the age... when you have 2 defensive mids over 30... 2 wing backs over 30 (cafu 36 by the way) you have a problem. the avg age for that group was really high...
the other problems was the usual invitation of European players only... which caused the team to be completely overrated and not our best team. That WC by the way, was the WC people in Brazil wanted Juninho P to start on the place of Ronaldinho.
I guess this also hold true for Drogba, Stoichkov, Hagi, E'too, Rafa Marquez... I see what you're doing here...
And I know exactly which examples you're going to give me... so if you put 5 examples of Brazilians that got fat and lazy but ignore the other 1000 of examples... who really is again going by his own accounts and opinions and not by what is the actual truth?
Plus how many of the fat and lazy in reality is... older and not as effective?
Everyone knows that midfielders that are based on speed usually get off their primes sooner since they lose a step and become common mids. Same goes for forwards. Then there's injuries among other issues.
See those players that got "fat and lazy".. had always acted the same way since they started playing, going out and drinking... but if you only notice it after they get old and can't perform the same way they did while they were young... So you cheer for them while they are winning for you but once they can't perform the same way you start to nitpick why they are performing this way.
Science is a great thing.. it created the Scientific method.. so if you add and remove variables and get different results, it means that the variable is what causes the results.
So... Drink and go out - young = perform great
Drink and go out - old = perform bad
The variable there is..... age...
Scoreline was one-sided. That's what matters.
Torres didn't change the outcome of the game.
I said "best defenders". The Brazilian league and the Copa Libertadores doesn't have the world's best defenders. Besides Neymar wasn't that impressive in 2012 Copa Libertadores - 1 good game.
And the international matches you are referring to include mostly friendlies. Against teams like Iraq, China, USA, Argentina "local" team and such. Not exactly the world's best defenders.
It seems to happen with Brazilians more. Ronaldinho, Kaka, Ronaldo, Adriano.... were a mere shadow of their former selves before turning 28.
Drogba had his most productive season after he turned 30 so not sure why you are bringing up his name. Clueless much?
It changed how people reacted to the game.
What do you consider the world's best defenders? All defenders in the EPL, La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, French 1st?
You probably couldn't name the starting defenders of 80% of the teams on those leagues. I'll go a step further and say 90%... likely would have to google some of the leagues just to see which teams are competing on their first division.
Outside of the top 3 teams in Europe everyone is on par with south american teams or behind them.
Argentina's local team last year was comprised mostly of a Velez team that was considered the third best team in the world. Plus... the Brazilian Olympic team had an easier time scoring on a full Argentinean side than the so called Argentina B side. Argentina is suffering from the same problem Brazil has been suffering... Overrating players that play in Europe.
Kaka - injuries
Ronaldinho - age
Ronaldo - after injuries was never able to recover physically, never got strong again but still was an amazing player. Oh by the way I know you do not think much of the S. American leagues.. but he was very effective as a striker for Corinthians
Adriano - He's a special case on his own.. he does not care about money or football.... on his own words... "Eu sou da favela" I'm from the slums... This guy still goes to his childhood slum to hang out with his friends, he goes there and people don't hear about him for days.
So 4 players... yeah that's all of the brazilians that play football.. sums them up pretty well.
Drogba is being called washed up because he went to play outside of the major european leagues
Doesn't really matter. Bottom-line is Spain would've won that game (and thus the tournament) without a proper striker.
The vast majority of the best defenders in the world are at European clubs. Even the best South American defenders are in Europe. Just look at the squads for Argentina, Chile, Paraguay, Uruguay and Colombia National Teams.
Injuries only started after he left Milan. He was already on the decline by then even though he was only 26-27.
Yup age. He declined at 26-27, which is an early age to be declining at a significant rate.
4 of the best, not just random 4. Of the top Brazilian forwards & attacking midfielders to play in the past 15 years, only Rivaldo was still a great player in his late twenties. That's a bit unusual.[/quote]
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