but if you are saying Torres is being at the wrong club than his skill, how come he wouldn't florish in Spain National team either? That can't be a wrong 'club' (I would define club as a group of players in this context only)... from your post, if you are blaming in being at the wrong club and his skill stays intact, he would have been no problem in Spain. But instead, his place in Spain got threaten as well... Analogy to my post is Messi. He does not progress in Argentina because he has different set of players in that team, while he progresses nicely in Barcelona because of the right 'club'... For Torres, he is a flop in Chelsea and Spain, that tells that his skill somewhat gone and his best is behind him Now my argument for Carroll, he doesn't even make it in England and he is not preferred in Liverpool either... his price is inflated cause of Torres 50M. Although Carroll is young, but he was bought for 35M for one good season so Carroll price is projected with his potential, while Torress is bought cause of his past, that means Torres is proven and Carroll is not. Carroll can be Denilson of Brazil (the one with Real Betis), and Torres can be Shevchenko. All in all, both are flop in my eyes, and I think the biggest flop (at this time right now) would be Torres cause of the 50M tag. That's a lot of money for someone who can't deliver. If lets say both are a flop, then the one who lose the most is Chelsea. If both are sold right now in the next transfer window, rumour said that Torres can be bought for 20M. Carrol probably can be sold at 15M if he is being sold today. So Chelsea lose 30M, and Liverpool lose 15M, clearly Torres is the bigger flop (percentage lose wise and money wise).