As I am watching Fulham vs Liverpool, Andy Carroll is so ineffective, just like Torres in Chelsea. I wonder, who is the bigger flop, Carroll or Torres? and why? The only difference between them is 15 million pound in transfer fee, but I dont think Torress is worth 50 or Carroll is worth 35.
For me its clearly Andy Carroll. Here's why: 1) Torres' will come good at chelsea. If RA allows AVB to build the team around torres, mata, sturridge, luiz, ramires...There will be goals. Yes, he is struggling but if you took thierry henry from his prime and popped him into stoke citys starting XI he would probably look like crap too. Andy carroll is not needed at liverpool. He does not have the technique, vision, or stamina/pace to play cohesively alongside players like suarez, gerrard, bellamy, lucas.... Also, liverpool are stronger with 3 CM's thus that leaves KD with making the choice between suarez and carroll. Even if suarez gets injured, LFC will be screwed if they try and rely on AC for goals because he is not suited to that system. Will he come good one day? yes. Will it be at Liverpool? IMO, no.
But when Torres transfered to Chelsea, Torres was not in his prime, therefore that's not the same situation as if you take Henry and put it in Stoke City. Chelsea has abundance of talent around Torres (both old and new), and still Torres can't score. On the other hand, I see Carroll as statue, who does nothing, man, I wonder how he can even worth 35 million pounds, Shearer was a much better striker than Carroll and he didn't cost 35 million pounds.
That was 15 years ago. Prices change, 15 years before Shearer moved to Newcastle Bryan Robson moved to United for 1.5m. Obviously Carroll isnt worth two Shearers just like Shearer is not worth 10 Robsons or 30 Kevin Keegans. FWIW Carroll cost £15m less, is on a 1/3 of his contract, 5 years younger and has more league goals in less appearances than Torres has for Chelsea. Perhaps the only thing Andy has got going for him is right now is that he's marginally less shit than Torres. Both players are unmitigated disasters but Carroll was bought by kenny who has faith in him while Torres has been forced onto 2 separate Chelsea coaches. Roman will give up on Torres before we do on Carroll their money will ensure that Torres becomes the bigger flop.
At the time of transfer, Torres was worth £50m, in my book. He'd played in the Euro's, the world cup, the Champions League, and had an exceptional record in the EPL. Everything about him said "£50m striker". Yes, his form was questinable, but his ability was undeniable. His form since makes him an unquestionable flop. He loks useless. Bereft of confidence, touch, skill, finishing; everything. Based against his ability, Torres has been a huge flop. Carroll, on the other hand, was never worth £35m anyway. Liverpool as good as confessed that he wasn't; his price was dictated by the Torres transfer. Quite how a player of Torres (then) calibre had an effect on a 21 year oldEPL rookie with 6 good monthsbeind him is anyones guess, but it did. Against his ability, Carroll has simply lived p to what most people expected so far. I certainly didn't expect much, and I haven't seen much. Against his price though, he is, again, a massive flop. He looks out of place, and Liverpool are a much bette side when Bellamy and Suarez play.
Easy.... both! But as both managers insist on playing teams and tactics that do not favour them they will continue to struggle.
To date it is obviously Torres. He cost a lot more, is on higher wages and had a proven track record for club and country. Carroll was more about potential - he had never hit the heights that Torres had achieved so expectations should be lower. Carroll might be one of those strikers like Anelka, not the most prolific - a 1 in 3 striker throughout his career. On the other hand Torres at LFC was a 2 in 3 striker - one of the best in the World, along with Eto'o and Villa. He was scoring freely for LFC in the Prem and then suddenly flopped immediately at Chelsea. Dalglish only had Torres for 4 League games and yet after 25 Prem games at Chelsea, Torres has still scored more Prem goals for Dalglish then for Ancelotti or Villas Boaz! Torres has a much lower scoring rate at Chelsea then Carroll's scoring rate at LFC. His stats at LFC clearly showed Torres was the most prolific striker in the Prem and with scoring rate stats that compared favourably to Van Nistelrooy and Henry. Now he has scoring rates of worse than 1 goal in 8, almost as bad as Anichebe. Torres is clearly the biggest flop in the history of English football. He would be the biggest flop in the history of football anywhere except for Lentini and Denilson complicating matters. Shevchenko at Stamford Bridge looks like a relative bargain.
Oh please Torres was one of the best at LFC. RB had the whole system fine tunned to support fernando and get him the goals. At that time, the only people scoring goals were Fernando and SG. Everyone knew, play compact, and get the ball to SG & FT and let them work their magic, and it usually worked. Fast incisive attacks usually led to him scoring goals. Sadly, no one on CFC current squad is capable of providing the support or passes that FT requires. He is no drogba, suarez, rooney, RVP who can create a goal out of nothing. Torres was absolutely worth 50million pound cause he has sold thousands of shirts and struck new commercial deals for chelsea. Carrol at 35million pounds for this so called "potential" highlights what's wrong with the English game. This kid scored 10 goals for newcastle and now he's the new alan shearer or thierry henry...please Torres will score goals at chelsea. Let AVB build his team, get some fast attacking players, and Torres will flourish. How can you expect Torres to thrive with guys like malouda, kalou, obi mikel, ramires behind him? Like wise, how will carroll suit liverpools style when he is more suited to stoke city tactics?
So your implying that Gerrard's ability to create chances is the difference? If Gerrard is the difference then perhaps you should wait until Carroll has Gerrard to create chances for him. They have hardly played together at LFC due to overlapping injuries. They have both played together for a combined 57 minutes (in that time Carroll scored once). They have spent more time together playing for England than for LFC. Are you seriously attempting to claim Chelsea are a weak side, so Torres is struggling? Interesting. You do realise Chelsea have spent ~£150 million net this year (2011)? Carroll has a Prem scoring rate at LFC of 0.21 goals per game. At NUFC it was 0.34 goals per game. Torres has a Prem scoring rate at CFC of 0.12 goals per game. At LFC it was 0.64 goals per game. The stats quite clearly show that Torres has a far inferior Prem scoring rate currently than Carroll, something that was the opposite before their Jan window moves. It is without dispute that Torres scoring rate has regressed more, at greater cost per week, than Carroll. So Torres is clearly the biggest flop out of the two so far. You can assert all you want about how Torres will score goals at Chelsea. Until he does though, he remains the biggest flop in the history of English football.
The correct answer is Torres. He is overpaid atm and massively underperforming. He needs to step it up in the Prem, if he wants to continue being the #1 striker at Chelsea, IMO.
Stats are great at supporting arguments but they don't paint the entire picture. Torres' few goals have been quite sublime and he was starting to pick up form before that red card he received. After that he went back to crap, so i sort of agree with you. AVB needs results like no other, especially at chelsea. Drogba is a battering ram who can almost single handlely guarantee goals. Fernando Torres never could and never will. He requires a team around him, but his raw ingredients such as technique and movement are still probably there. He just needs to get match fit. From what i have seen of Big Andy Carroll...I generally like the kid. I think he has charisma, plus a hell of a left footed shot, and his aerial strengths are well known. In terms of technique, we all know his first touch is piss poor (from what i've seen anyway). Torres' move to CFC has been horrendous. But it's early days. Is he a flop right now? yes. Do i believe he will get out of it? I think he is too good a player to give up and not atleast try to get back to his LFC form days. Carroll? yea yea, the newcastle-chelsea-LFC deal meant his price was inflated, i get it. At the same time, i just don't see how carroll fits into a system with smooth, fast, silky players like gerrard, suarez, and bellamy. But KD is the man to prove us wrong, so we'll just all have to watch and see what happens. cheers
How does this make any sense? If its early days for Torres surely its also early days for Carroll as well, infact slightly earlier as he was signed a few hours after Torres . In the future its impossible to tell who will come good, maybe they both will or maybe neither but up to now Torres by Transfer fee, Wage and Goal to game ratio has been the bigger flop. Unfortunate for Torres it appears that AVB has lost faith in him. He hasn't started a league game for 2 months, 29/10 5-3 home defeat to Arsenal, and the only games he has started since then is the 1-1 CL draw @ Genk and the home defeat to Liverpool in the League cup. With Anelka, Malouda, Kalou and Drogba all on the way out AVB is going to be given a lot of money to bring in his own attackers rather than select a player he's been lumbered with. The fact that Kenny wanted Carroll and continues to have faith in him gives an edge as he's more likely to still be selected while the upcoming transfer window can effectively end El Ninny's Chelsea career.
Torres has still scored more goals against Chelsea then for Chelsea - and he has 35 appearances now for Chelsea.
With talk of CFC being rumored to be looking for a suitor for Torres', willing to pay atleast 20million pound... Let me ask you, especially you LFC fans...Do you think Fernando Torres could re-find himself at a team like Arsenal? Where could he go and succeed? Or is he just completely finished at 27 soon to be 28? (It's a distant possibility but not surprising when you consider all he's done from a very early age during his Athleti days and then Liverpool...
We're discussing this on the LFC boards. Personally I would take him back because the plan was always to partner him with Suarez, and LFC this season have statistically the worst finishing in the League! The Torres of old was a superb finisher. Of course there is a doubt as to whether he can recapture that form. No-one really knows why Torres has degenerated so much. He has not had injury problems in 2011, he has not moved to a poor side, he has no language issues, we know he can play in the rigourous Prem style. It's a big mystery. If Torres was available for £20 million, I would hope LFC would like to take him back. Arsenal need another forward - Torres could fit in well with Van Persie. Spurs also could do with another forward if Adebayor leaves for richer pastures in the summer. Man City might also try and get Torres (just to take up Tevez' squad spot). Fergie would probably jump at the chance to land him too - if Berbatov is still frozen out. Normally a club would not sell Torres for so cheap, so soon after spending so much on him. But clubs do sometimes cut their losses relatively early - Keane, Zlatan, Huntelaar, Sutton etc. Plus Chelsea operate on Roman's whims so normal practice might be less relevent when trying to make predictions. I have no idea whether the story has any substance or what Torres actually wants to do. Torres' place in Spain's Euro squad is under threat and he needs an uplift in form to retain his place.
He's not finished and despite my glee at the Daily Mails headlines I dont think Chelsea will give up on him this early. If Chelsea do decide to take a £30m hit on him there is no way that he'll be allowed to stay in the Premiership and unless he takes a pay cut to return to Atletico he'll end up at either one of the Milans, Juve or the newly cash rich PSG, Malaga or Anzhi. The biggest worry for Torres right now is his place in the International squad. David Villa is pretty much guaranteed to be included and if Llorente and Soldado continue their form Torres could be watching the European Championships on the TV. He left his home town club to win trophies, he clearly enjoyed being at Liverpool yet moved again because he wanted trophies being dropped from both his club team and Internationally could be a blow his confidence never regains from.
This is my biggest concern for him personally. Chelsea spent 50 million lbs (i know it's nothing to them or should i say Abromavich, but still..they directly funded one of their rivals then just for the sake of it) on Torres. I don't believe you "make" that sort of transfer and then just give up on it. I understand AVB is trying to save his job and keep Chelsea involved in the title race and the CL, but what about the player/investment made. What sort of confidence do they send to Fernando torres by treating him this way. Scroll down to the last picture: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2073746/Fernando-Torres-sold-20m.html Do chelsea feel proud about having the reputation for buying two of Englands biggest flops ever? (schevchenko and Torres) Secretly RA must feel like a fool... All im saying is, one day all this will bite chelsea back in the ass. The whole 8 years of history they have still has alot of catching up to do before they can match Liverpool, United, and Arsenal IMO.
When Andy Carroll was bought, he was almost certainly viewed, by both Liverpool and their fand, as one for the future. Whether he's worth £35m is debateable, but he ws definitely bought with "the future" in mind. Toress, for £50m, was already considered to be at his peak. He was definitely bought with a view to delivering straight away and he simply hasn't delivered. Whilst Carroll is blessed with a little patience due to his age and relative experience in the top flight, Torres does not have such luxury. For me, both were over-priced for what their clubs had got. One was a £50m striker who has massively failed since the move, the other was never a £35m striker in a month of Sundays, but is not being viewed as a flop, yet, due to his age.
Carroll, when he does play though gets on the end of passes from suarez, downing, bellamy, maxi... Torres has had to depend on malouda, anelka, kalou, mikel. Big difference. This year, they added mata, sturridge, meireiles, yet it hasn't clicked for him. Part of that is down to the fact its a new team really, and its only been 3 1/2 months that they've been together. Torres is 27, he's still got another 4-5 years of PEAK years for a striker.
I think the only reason Carroll has note is due to his pony tail lol.. He simply was and is potential. Torres is the most disappointing buy, since he has pedigree to back up his transfer fee.
Schevchenko was 30,31 when he transferred to Chelsea. It was also known that he was clearly RA target and was simply thrown into the mix. His best days were clearly with Milan. Torres is 27,28. He was looking very sharp just a few months ago. Chelsea entered a bad spell and unfortunately, they resorted to the muscle and nous of drogba instead of having the courage to sticking with there idealistic obsession of playing beautiful football. Now we all know what Chelsea about....and what they aren't for that matter. Torres still has a few good years in him, but he needs a manager brave enough and bold enough, to build a team around him and support him. He had both of those at Athletico and Liverpool. He is living in the shadows of drogba and lampard. Lampard is being fazed out slowly, but you see the effect of drogba (rightfully so, he will go down as a CFC legend) on the fans and the results and you feel sorry for torres. Now, lets face it, the only reason LFC fans WANT to see torres continue to fail is because you guys can't accept the rejection. Face it, you've been out of the CL for what 2 1/2 seasons...With no major apparent improvement in results, it seems you very well could face a third full season without CL football. Don't blame torres for your clubs failures. Let him be and move on. Focus on suarez and carroll and getting the best out of them. Especially carroll since he'll soon be your only forward when/if suarez is banned.
This thread is not about whether LFC fans want Torres to succeed or not. It is about who IS the bigger flop - Carroll or Torres. The answer is Torres - end of story. You cannot have a thread talking about Torres and Carroll and comparing their impacts in 2011, and not expect LFC fans to comment.
You're correct Torres still does have a few peak years left and both Atletico and Liverpool built their teams to fit Torres strengths. What's also important is that both teams won the square route of ******** all with him in their teams. In the previous three years Liverpool had won the FA cup and CL as well as being finalists in in the CL and LC. In the 3 years after Torres Atletico won the Europa got to the Copa del ray final and got into the Champions League for the first in over a decade. Funnily enough Torres never played european football with Atletico but since his departure they've been in Europe every season. Why do you have to feel sorry for Torres? AVB is practising a new system and all the players are being dropped now and again. Lampard gets dropped and comes back into the team on merit by scoring Torres on the other hand just looks like a petulant child whenever he gets an opportunity. Find me ONE post of where a Liverpool fan has blamed Torres for our failures. He hasn't even been gone a year and if you look at last seasons results we actually significantly improved after he left in Jan(though that has more to do with Kenny than any of the players).
I'd rather have Torres in my team. I think Andy Carroll is a bad player whereas we know Torres isn't. I think with Torres it is a case of him being at the wrong club rather than his skill.