Which country is the 5th best ever???

I thought those sad days were almost behind us, but judging from the hard-on much of Europe has for the French team´s non-white players, apparently not...

Funny you didn´t bother touching the rest of my post. And where were Camoranesi´s great great grandparents from? Let´s take a good hard look at him...






If you saw him walking down the street in London and didn´t know much about football, would ¨there goes a 100% racially pure European¨ be the first thoght that comes to mind? The same could be said about half the Italian team, present and past. Maybe the fact that at least he isn´t African like much of the French team makes it easier to swallow for you.

 

Well they (Spain) actually have 2 ECs + a third final which ironically, in terms of trophies actually won, puts them ahead of England, Holland and Hungary.. but I agree with you... historically - Uruguay takes the number 6 sport - perhaps even number 5 with 2 world cup wins + 14 copa americas. Spain's dismal performances in the world cup is their achillies heel - although they have been the most consistant qualifiers out of the bunch.

 

I may have been blinded by your overwhelming stupidity, sorry, please point out which other earlier points you wanted me to address. As for Camoranesi, who is talking about "racial purity"? Are you a budding Josef Mengele or something?

Camo may be partially Amerindian, but also he is of proven native Italian parentage (find out where Molise is) and so when he pulls on the shirt of Italy and takes to the field, the badge is in his blood. He is reclaimed property if you will. Which is an entirely different situation to France randomly going off like pirates and stealing any random talented player they find on their raids like Vieira, Thuram, etc who happen to make up the overwhelming majority of their team.

As for your asinine and baseless claim about "half of the Italian team past and present", you're going to have to prove this. You haven't even made an effort to. But in my experience, as a person who is rarely defeated in debate, this seems like desperation on your part just throwing anything out there. You will not be able to find an example of ONE player representing Italy, past or present who does not at least have some Italian blood in him. Not one. Prove otherwise.

 

No, it´s your own stupidity blinding you, trust me. The part where I pointed out where the Holland, Ajax, and others, won tournaments with a large percentage of players that didn´t have a drop of Dutch blood in them, what is your attitude towards them? And what will your attitude be towards the England team if they one day win the World Cup, will you go into Ashley Cole´s family tree to see if you can locate an English rapist that settled Barbados in the 18th century, and and annul the win if he doesn´t have any English blood? Lol, this is the funniest shit I´ve read on here in a long time.

It isn´t me, that´s for certain.

Camoranesi(who you agree is not fully Italian decent,) who grew up supporting River Plate and considers Maradona his inspiration, claimed he still consideres himself an Argentine, but that he defended the Italian colors with pride.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauro_Camoranesi

He is the very definition of a mercenary, and that didn´t sit well with many Italian fans, they obviously have more sense than you.

Woah, correction. This is the funniest shit I´ve read on here in a long time. An Argentine mestizo who wasn´t good enough for the Albeceleste, and had to suit up for the Azzurri and ended up getting lucky. And you call French players, the majority born and bred in France ¨talented players stolen by pirates¨ simply because of their ancestry. How does a Frenchman ¨steal¨ another ¨Frenchman,¨ enlighten me. Did Jaquet kidnap them?

Mario Balotelli
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Balotelli


Christian Manfredini
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Manfredini



Stefano Okaka Chuka
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefano_Okaka_Chuka


Not one(just like you said genius) but three. That doesn´t include other black players like Liverani that do have Italian ancestry.

Italy has a sizeable population of people with African lineage, and has had them for some time...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Italians


I can´t post any more than three pictures, but you can look at Italy´s 1982 team(Claudio Gentile in particular stands out) and see the connection. What you haven´t done is explain exactly what percentage of French/Italian/Dutch whatever decent a player should have in order to represent their country, or why anyone with half a brain should even bother to take some silly idea that was probably shopped off of Stormfront.org seriously.

 

I did not know that admiring Diego Maradona changed somebodys ethnic background. That was a well thought out and astute point. The final part of the biological change in Mauro Camoranesi was when he pulled on the River Plate shirt. Magically the blood from his grandparents fell out of his body at that point and so he can't be claimed as an oriundo. I too felt a strange sensation when pulling on a Racing Club shirt; now I understand thanks to you.

Its like this;

If I have a dog and let you borrow it for a little while. Let you take it for a walk, pet it, all that good stuff. Then it has puppies, ethically I have a very good claim to the ownership of those puppies if I wish to persue that claim. Its impossible for me to "steal" my own property.

Now that is a completely different situation to me breaking into somebodys house, grabbing their prize puppy, throwing it in a bag and calling it rightfully my own just because the puppies that I actually own are worthless.

Which of these people whos pictures you have posted have played for the Italian national first team? Answer is, none of them. They haven't even been capped and one of them has even been called up by the Ivory Coast. I'm just curious, are you disabled? I mean you went to the trouble of typing this into Wikipedia but apparently, haven't developed to the stage of learning how to read the words yet. Did you just want to see the pretty pictures?

Sorry, but you failed completely with the request. You have yet to find one player who has who has represented the Italian national team that doesn't not have native background. Unlike the lie where you tried to claim "half of the Italian team past and present". You even admitted, in your racially excited search for a "dark one", that capped players such as Liverani even have an Italian parent. You chose to make a stupid claim, now step up and qualify it. Take a look at the WC 2006 roster and try harder.

Also, I'm very confused as to your reasoning for posting the last Wikipedia link. Well done, you've managed to show that immigrant communities of Arabs and Bebers such as Moroccans, Tunisians, Egyptians, Algerians, make up around 1% of the population in Italy? Good for them. What the fuck this has to do with football, France stealing players or any part of the conversation at hand though is beyond me. Please advise.

I didn't know that Ajax is a national team, thanks for making me aware of this. Where is this mystical Ajax nation? I hope to visit someday. This one was almost as good as your, "wearing a River Plate shirt transforms your ethnic background" argument.

 

If we include club teams, Spain can make a claim for #5. Without clubs teams, Spain is clearly behind the Likes of England, France, Netherlands and Uruguay.

If clubs are excluded, then I would put Uruguay as #5, as you said, a record which includes 2 WCs + 14 Copas is hard to match.

As far as I'm concerned, France and England are a close call for #6. Since WWII: France has been to 9 WCs; England to 12. England failed to advance out of group stage twice (1950 2nd in group, and in 1958 in a playoff game); France 4 times (1954 1 win, 1966 1 tie, 1978 1 win, 2002 1 tie). England has been to the 1/4 finals 9 times (counting 1982, excluding 1950); France only 5 times.

France has made it to the Semis more often (5 vs 2) and Finals (2 vs 1); they also have a better Euro record (2 EC vs 0). But their overall winning percentage in ECQ & Finals is about the same (France 69.0%, England 68.8%).

IMO, it comes down to what do you value more, Overall consistency or higher peaks. When it come long time evaluation, I would lean toward consistency when two teams are about the same. If we add pre-WWII results or club performance England pulls ahead even if we value peaks over consistency.

So right now (excluding club performance), I would say:
#5 Uruguay
#6 England
#7 France
#8 Netherlands
#9 Spain

If we include clubs:
#5 Spain
#6 England
#7 Uruguay
#8 Netherlands
#9 France

 

The real answer is perception, I didn't count and I though that Spain has slightly more EC/CL than England. With this data the "with Clubs" version should have England as #5 and Spain as #6.

 

Apart from being very interested in these Holland and Ajax sides that didn't have a drop of Dutch blood in them (who are these sides? can you list them?) I always thought that to play for your national team you have to be of that nationality. In other words, if you have a French passport, you're qualified to pay for France, and so on, and if you have a Dutch passport, as far as I'm concerned, you're as Dutch as Edam cheese. Are you advocating racially pure national teams? You might want to alert Australia and the US if that's the plan.

By the way, every single player in the current Dutch national team was born and raised in the Netherlands.

 

Antonio81 is responding to a poster who is advocating racially pure national teams. You didn't scroll back even a couple of pages to see what that part of the discussion is about?

 

Haha, looks like Louis Farrakhan still hasn't learned how to read or engage his tiny brain, since you keep bringing up "racial purity" (not me). What next Kanye, are you going to fall about the floor screaming "JJF doesn't care about black people"? All because you are unable to swallow the simple fact of life that native Frenchmen, who make up 85% of that country, happen not to be black dudes from Senegal.

I know in the Americas, people of European background are forced to be brought up with "white mans guilt". But thankfully, this kind of stupidity isn't prevalent across Europe itself for the most part. You're the one who brought up colour, you're the one discriminating against various different native European peoples for not having black skin and idealising a world where respective European nations have no natives playing for each NT.

 

Learn how to read, please. I´ve been arguing against this racial nonsense from the beginning.

I realize that, as have many of the so-called Surinamese contingent in the past. So have the vast majority of France´s 1998 WC. I asked Mick Jagger above if he had a problem with the Dutch team since they similarly have/have had a large contingent of black players that were born and raised there too.

I´ll take apart his crap post piece by piece when I get a chance, I´m in a hurry now.

 

Which European nations have no natives playing for them? And before you even answer that question, what in your view is a native?

 

I'm just pointing out facts here, I'm not sure where exactly you stand on this discussion.

Surinam was part of the Netherlands until 1975. So players born in Surinam pre-1975 of course all had a Dutch passport. There are more people of Surinamese descent living in the Netherlands than in Surinam itself today. The vast majority of this generation of people of Surinamese descent were in fact born and raised in the Netherlands.

What I always find interesting is that people always point to the Dutch of Surinamese descent while no-one seems particularly bothered by our players of Indonesian descent, or indeed of Turkish or Moroccan descent. I'm guessing that people find it easier to accept people with light brown skin as 'real Europeans'.

 

I apologise for that. And heavens above there's no need to lash out like that.

 

There was no lashing involved, IMO- I simply asked if you'd seen all the related posts. But I'll apologize if you think you've been slighted in some way.

 

I know, and fully agree with you. The nutjob below believes it to be unfair and ¨racist¨ for people born and raised in Europe to be allowed to represent their country, if they aren´t of European decent.

I can´t believe I´m arguing with somebody this stupid. I guess its worth it for the entertainment value.

The irony.

Actually your American cousins are much smarter than you, as they are better at hiding their bigotry. You´ve made a complete ass of yourself on here.

Here we go. Your beef has nothing to do with Fontaine or Platini having Italian or Spanish lineage and representing France, it has to do with players(who were born and raised in Europe) who have ¨black skin¨ playing over ¨different European native peoples.¨

I´ll have to give you credit for finally comming out and admitting it, that Frenchmen, born and raised in France, pledging allegiance to their flag and singing the national anthem, should not have been allowed to represent their national team and win the WC because they had Armenian/ African/ Berber/ Arabic ancestry. The problem with that is we´ll have to go back and cancel out the acheivements of the Italian, Spanish, and Dutch national teams in international competitions since they had similar players too.

PS you seem to be arguing that Africans are better footballers than Europeans, and Europeans steal them when they are unable to win Cups by themselves, that might conflict with the BNP supremecy crap you´ve been espousing here. Brilliant again

Go ahead and go off-topic again about mythical nations/ biological changes / magic dogs / and a bunch of other BS I didn´t bother to read(comming from the man who has never been defeated in a debate.)

 

I read a propaganda piece in the article which dubiously tried to Paint it Black, to steal a song title. The only source for that claim is the "The International Journal of African Historical Studies" an Afrocentric publication from the United States. No doubt filled with the sort of bat shit insane history revisionism where people with inferiority complexs try to associate everything to do with Africa with the word "black". The sort of Jesus was black, the Egyptians were black, the Greeks and Socrates were black, the Romans were black, the Carthaginians were black, the Hamatic peoples were black, Santa Clause was black, Godzilla was black garbage. While they completely neglect relevent cultures such as that of the Igbo.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/220131

While its true that a minority of berbers who inhabited the African land that the Romans controlled, did reach every corner of the empire to some extent. The fact that the book is called the "Romans and the Blacks" shows that the guy is unaware of which parts of Africa Romans controlled in the first place and who the natives of North Africa are (which is typical of the ignorance in such publications, or intentional attempt at politically correct propanganda). Think we can mark this one down as another victory for me.

In any case, the Roman Empire was a state. If football existed back then, the Berbers of North Africa, the Latin peoples of Europe, the Germanic peoples in the Empire, the Greeks, the Brythons of Briton, etc would all be natives of the same nation state and thus would belong in the same national team. Persia wouldn't beat them at football BTW.

What else would these people possibly be able to be? It would be ignorant to claim that Liverani's father is "cancelled out" just because his mother is black. He has an undeniable claim to himself being significantly native to the badge he has represenated at national level. But this is not the case with France's piracy is it? Which you are trying to defend just because some of them happen to have dark skin. Where Vieira for example who has just been exploited and is 0% native Frenchman, yet represents the French national team.

1) sauce. Gentile's father is Italian, and Gentile played for Italy. Fair enough. Sorry I don't know his personal phone number so I can't call and ask about his mother "racial purity" for you.

2) Names of the other 1982 winning players please, who you have racially profiled and identified as not part of "zee master race".

3) Sorry but you've failed again to "Paint it Black". Since when did the native inhabitants of Southern Europe all have uniform blonde hair and deathly blue pale skin which you seem to be expecting? Having dark hair and a tan complexion doesn't mean somebody is "secretly black" as you seem to be suggesting. You've probably being masturbating to True Romance too much. Its just a movie son.

Again you're the one trying to paint me both as "part black" and a racist. I'm not evaluating talent based on skin colour (as you have done with Brazilians in another thread). Of course there are some African players who are far better than European ones; are you blind or do you really think somebody like Roger Milla isn't better than Christophe Dugarry? Its simple common sense. There are also European players better than many African ones too, namely Roberto Baggio, George Best, Johan Cruijff, Bobby Charlton, etc.

These two people happen to be partially French, but you've taking two different points together to create a false argument. Go back, read. I notice that, like a coward, you have scurried away from mentioning the names Pires and Zidane who won in 1998 despite not being native Frenchmen at all, so you can continue to play your little race card based on skin colour game.

 

.

 

If you can't keep up with the mountains of exchanged text, simply watch this video for a brief recap of events.
[youtube]URbfwChEV8s[/youtube]

 

This has nothing to do with anything in the article I quoted. You´re going off-topic with an Afrocentric rant to try and skirt your original point that players born and raised in France shouldn´t be allowed to represent their country solely because they have Berber or Sub-Saharan African backround.

Congratulations, you won an argument with yourself(since this wasn´t the point I was arguing.) You´ve lied about everything else and I wouldn´t be surprised if this book was invented out of thin air too. Trust me this topic is the last thing in the world you want to debate with me.

The Roman Empire was an empire, and had states within it, much like the British Empire of a century ago. That would have made Indians, Jamaicans, South Africans, Zimbabweans, Chinese, etc. all eligible to play for the former Great Britain team, which again goes against your argument about bloodlines. Anyways off-topic, again

Liverani is an Italian because he was born and raised in Italy, neither me nor do the majority of people in Italy care where his mother or father came from. It would be ignorant to claim he is not Italian just because his mother is from Africa, since he has never lived there. You see in America, there´s something called the one drop rule(that the British Colonial settlers invented,) one drop of African blood and...talk to some of your cousins over there and they´ll fill you in, you´re too ignorant for me to keep on waisting my time educating.

It is. The vast majority of the 1998 WC French team were born and raised in France or on French territories. What part of this don´t you understand? And explain why anyone should take your ideas that bloodlines rather than place of birth should be used to determine which national team a player should be allowed to represent.

Wrong liar. I am trying to defend them because they are French, and whom you are trying to discard as stolen Africans because some of them happen to have dark skin.

I don´t care about his or any other players´ racial purity, he´s Italian. Still he and several others are visibly different than many other European players. You went on a rant about how ¨Europeans¨ weren´t allowed to play for European teams.

So we can go off again on another tangent like we did with the three Italians of African decent

Never tried to do that liar. Race again.

I was never expecting that. What I was ¨expecting¨ was that considering the Mediterranean´s proximity to North Africa, and the fact that the Moors conquered part of the area for an extended period of time, and the fact that many of the people in both areas are visibly indistinguishable from each other, common sense says than some mixing may have gone on throughout the millenia.

No, but that his ¨blood¨ may not fit you standard of what is acceptable to represent his country. Race again.

God leave your fantasies personal life out of this I already told you in the last post. Wash your hands too before you touch the keys.

Wrong, you started with the racism accusasions, and you have gone on several off-topic rants about Farrakhan and Malcom X(clearly showing you have an obsession with the subject when noone here is discussing it.) My point has been that if anyone here is racist it isn´t me, that´s for sure, all anyone needs is a quick scroll through the thread to see that.

You´ve done that from the start liar, saying that players born and raised in their country can´t represent it because of their color and ¨blood.¨

Lying again. I said that countries with a large population of players of African decent do more of the stepover style of dribbling than others, I also said that the Germans and Italians invented/perfected zone defending, the Dutch perfected the Total Football that the English started, and the Mediterraneans perfected the passing game, etc.

You´re trying with all your might to inject race into everything(and try and make it appear as though I´m the one doing it) and are failing miserably.

Certainly. Your argument was that French players were so horrible they couldn´t win a WC without the ¨stolen Africans,¨ that was my beef.

A game you started and you injected race into(and continue to do.) I´ve mentioned Zidane´s name several times liar, and am doing so again now. What you have been scurring away from was your opinion on the Dutch players of Surinamese decent, should they be allowed to represent their country or not? You won´t answer will you.

You keep going off topic, moving the goalposts when your arguments get shot down, going off on silly tangents to try and ¨prove¨ I´m a racist(most likely to hide your own freakish ideas.) If you don´t have anything new other than Malcom brothas and race cards I won´t even bother responding to any more of this garbage.

PS stay away from anything African-American related, I´ve never read a bigger load of shit on the topic in my life.

 

Wrong answer Mr. Einstein. You randomly posted a link to this website, claiming that somehow millions of black people have been in Italy since Roman times: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africans_in_Italy

But in that article, the only source to back up the Roman times claim in that article is one from an Afrocentric, history revision book "Romans and the Blacks" by US based "The International Journal of African Historical Studies" which shows ignorance of who and what North Africa is. Thus your claim has no real basis, as presented, in detail above.

Are you really this slow? I mean, I love a good arguement, but it feels like I'm going against somebody who is disabled here. I wouldn't hit a man in a wheelchair.. well maybe if he was a communist or something. I'll let you dwell on this part for a little bit before deciding if there is anything else worth replying to.

 

Oh, one more. Let me just point and laugh at this part. The Roman Empire was made up of large provinces, which they themselves created, these were not "states". All of the provinces were cohesively joined together, kind of like how China is. Some cities were given a level of autonomy, but not in a manner in which a modern large state would as you seem to be imagining. The Roman Empire was not like the EU which pretends to have indepedendent states.

Also the comparison between the Roman Empire and British Empire is a bit random, since wide areas were given more autonomy in the British one. The part in India for example was called the "Indian Empire" and they had Indian passports, it wasn't simply called "Britain". Queen Victoria was Empress of India not "Empress of Britain".

 

back to the original topic, how about include the other officially recognized tournaments by fifa. the fifa confederation cup and olympics

these should be added to the other trophy's, they won't change much but it can change the overall success of tournament