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Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by DaPrince84, Nov 27, 2012.
A letter from F365.
the one that shows ambition to challenge for top honours, and a passion for the club (and all it represents).
hmm, "the nearly relegated 70s version"...so out of a full decade with 4 trophies and 4 more finals (including a double and 1 win and 1 final in european competition) he chooses to focus on 2 seasons in the bottom half of the table? i smell bias already.
To me, this is simple. I just want the Arsenal that wants to win back. The complacency is the issue. There doesn't seem to be a lot of passion about the 'game' anymore. And what bothers me is that this mentality seems to be embedded into the club culture. IMO, people are noticing it and are fighting that.
When you are tied 0-0 against a bunch of scrubs, and there is a few minutes left in the game, no one wants to see you take off your CF (whose finally starting to score regularly) and put on a defensive midfielder (who rarely plays). That's not a winning mentality/ Pelple want you to go for the win. And I'm sorry, but saying Giroud may have been tired is a lame excuse. This is just one example.
On a broader scale, people see millions in the bank, see little talent on the field and hear their manager talk about how getting 4th is a trophy now (which doesn't even seem to be a certainty this year!), and people are frustrated. Again, to me, it's not a certain squad or 'trophies' that I want back. It's ambition. It's gone. The players see it too, which has to be demotivating.
Beat me to it. Yup.
yeah, I agree with that.
The average league position during that decade was 6th place. Not great and not better than today, but certainly not relegation status.
So post 1989 Arsenal?
The guy is right that these last 23 years are the best in this club's history.
my issue isn't 'wanting' anything back, it's like phishy and wanye said
just more bite and money spent on competing rather than remaining in limbo
dein sold AFTER getting kicked out of the club by a paranoid fiszman. (they treated lady nina bracewell smith equally ruthlessly)
and another thing, since when does a person become responsible for a relative's conduct?
since he's talking about "on the pitch", i'll bite. in the last decade we've won 3 trophies and made 3 more finals, plus whatever we probably won't achieve in the rest of this season. at least in the past (in my lifetime) when stagnation had set in the club had the balls to change in the hope of improvement. i'll give it to wenger that at long last he has attempted to change things around, but how many seasons did he (and/or the board) waste sitting on hands doing nothing when it was plainly obvious the squad was going nowhere? i'll go with 3. that's not on really, is it? in the decade before wenger arrived we won 6 trophies (including 1 in european competition when only half the timeframe allowed that to be a possibility) and reached another final.
hell, the board even sacked rioch after 1 year with a 7 place improvement to 5th (equal with 4th on points) and the signings of bergkamp and platt, mostly because he played wright out of position, and yet, we're happy to take similar or less now?
i think it boils down to this: are fans honestly happy with consistently decent finishes that achieve nothing for a fan or would we take intermittent good results with some actual achievement? i know which i'd prefer, and it's not constantly ending up in 4th place every season with nothing to show for it. no one gives a damn about finishing 4th in the long run, only the accountants do.
The Dein thing is funny with fans. Dein is made out to be a savior, yet everyone ignores the things he was wrong about, which were a lot.
The club does need someone in that role, but im good with it being someone else other than Dein.
I think the writer is just saying that this period is an amazing period for the club's history, and sticks out.
However he ignores that fans are really upset about the last 6 years of this club. Its not about winning trophies, but about competing for trophies. Trying hard to do its best. Maybe its because money isnt there, idk, but it never feels like the club is trying to win titles.
in terms of transfer dealings, at least dein could usually get and keep his man. he was hands on. we seem to have problems with both of those aspects. that is mostly why dein is missed within the club.
and let's not forget the leverage and influence he had outside arsenal, mostly on the club's behalf.
there were a lot of players Dein missed out on, and lets be reality here, we lost the best left back in the world partly over an extra £260k a year.
Then the Wembley stuff, the bond issue, etc.
This club has always been tight with money, and was under Dein. What annoys me, and I bet most fans, is that Arsenal dont really matter in the league and champions league.
If we were finishing close every year, this hostility would not exist.
they didn't act like they cared pre-1989??
idk, but the results werent anywhere near they are now in the league.
The club would have loved to be an "we only make the top 4" side before Wenger got here because it only made it 25 times out of 100+ years it existed before that. The club also let Liam Brady and Frank McLintock go when they were at the peak of their powers as well. Its always been a tight club with mone
Im not saying things are great right now, but feel the "I want my Arsenal back" crowd mean the club from 1989-2005, instead of most of before.
I mean why wasnt it a problem to be paying the most expensive tickets in the league in 1992? Why wasnt it an issue before that the board are old, out of touch with the common fan and Etonian, when they were in 2004?
On the other end, I just want to see a serious run at trophies. I dont see that anymore, so I agree with people who say that.
because in relative spending power terms, the most expensive tickets in 1992 were nowhere near as expensive as they are now...oh, and we were winning stuff.
this team has had a laissez faire attitude for the past 5 years or so... that is what is so maddening to me (and the wage structure/board decisions/etc)
but jesus, act like you ********ing care out there...
So it is about the trophies. That's why I can't ride with them all the way although they have very valid points I agree with.
I don't think the club has the money to spend like they have claimed for a while, or else they would have spent it. That leads to the question of why they don't have money and what the hell is going on up there. That's the shit I don't like.
that's not quite what i said. i was specifically referring to ticket prices. the club can get away with it when there is a end product that justifies it (a lessening of disgruntlement as opposed to a lack of disgruntlement). in the current situation, there is no justification.
Yeah, i agree with this. They are charging premium prices for a product assembled from the cheapest available components, and relying on brand loyalty to maintain sales. I would compare them to Apple, but people still enjoy their products. So i'm gonna go with Sony.
The one with Philippe Senderos starting at the back.
A CB pairing of Senderos and Cygan please!
in some respects, this is the greatest era ever in our history.
Whilst we have been for many years a big UK club, we're now a global club, and financially toe-to-toe with Real/Barca, etc.
That said, to go from Invincibles to a team that has many good players but is a "nearly there" team is frustrating. And the thing is, it has been caused by Arsene/board (BOTH are culpable) mistakes, which were readily preventable. IMO, that is what is pissing fans off. If being a nearly there team was unavoidable, then so be it, but it hasn't been.
Arsene is a legend, but had he built a team of sufficient balls, the 2008 and 2010 leagues would have been ours. The board is at fault for not permitting enough funds. The fans also need to realise that Kronke bought us as a cash cow/empire-building, not as a Roman/Shiekh-esque figure. Provided we remain a top four team and challenge, he's happy since his empire is sustained.
The thing is the stakes/demands for success are higher now. To compare eras is not prudent IMO. In the 70s/80s, there was no Sky money, no global fanbases (not compared to today), no Champions League, etc. Success is really now about its rewards, as much as the prestige/pride/joy in winning something.
Even under Graham, I don't think many Gooners were as spoiled as now. The peak Graham years IMO were 1986 to 1992, since even though he won cups after that we had many shitty players (Helder, McGoldrick, Jensen, Selley, etc.), played boring football, and had a wage structure that couldn't compete with United, or Blackburn at that time. It sounds weird, but Nayim from the Halfway Line was probably the best thing that happened to the club in the era. Graham really would have got the sack eventually, since he had lost the plot towards the end (signing many shitty players for a start).
I think had we won the CWC that season, the same players/wage structure would have continued, and despite Wright's goals and a world class keeper/defence, we would have been mightily average. IMO, the board got Rioch, Bergkamp and Platt since they knew continuing would have been suicide. We may not have been relegated, but I'd imagine we'd be like Liverpool are now, and have been since Rafa left and not competed with Fergie/United.
The culture of the club changed when Rioch came to be honest, and I think to some extent we started to play better/more "sexy" football. Not as good as under Arsene though, but an improvement on Graham.
jensen was never a shitty player. he was slow and couldn't score for toffee, but otherwise he was actually a solid player. he worked hard and was physical. he usually played a simple, uninspired but effective game.
There is a generational bias in that piece but I did enjoy reading it. I bet that apart from a few exceptions most Arsenal fans on here (and across the world really aside from North London vets) were raised on a heady diet of success and trophies. So, in a way we are trapped by our own past successes (in the Wenger era I might add). To me a super-club is expected to compete and win trophies. Or, at least try their best at it. If the path forward is to shrink and become Everton or Villa then that is outright stupid and illogical. The fact that our board (and I am convinced that it is the board and not Arsene) is arrogant enough to dismiss fans with the expectation that we will eat up anything that is served up is completely wrong. I will give you a perfect example. Cadillac was the best car in its segment for a long time with a loyal base of buyers. Then, the management types decided that putting a Caddy logo on a Chevette was a good idea to maximize profits. Guess what that got them? BTW, this is a real lesson in management, not something I made up.
These are trying times for most folks and the board is playing dangerous game with its global fan base when discretionary dollars (or Yens, or Pounds, or...you get the point) are drying up. The prawn sandwich crowd cannot keep the club where it is.
ticket prices are justified if people are still willing to goto game and pay those prices.
Football fans are afraid to do the thing that will actually make an impact, stop showing up and stop watching it on TV. Why? Idk.
A nice march before a match is not changing anything.
the Cadillac point would be true anywhere else except for major professional sports.
in an economic crisis all over the world, the premiership just signed the biggest TV contract ever. And even though we all are upset at the board dismissing us fans, Emirates is still sold out and has a waiting list. Shoot, Arsenal havent won a trophy in 7 years, have all this fan angst and still just signed a huge sponsorship deal with Emirates.
Football doesnt work like regular business, which is what I said a few weeks ago with how the club should start spending money to sign better talent.