where did this cool site come from?.. and why did noone tell me

Discussion in 'Referee' started by bothways, Jan 21, 2013.

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  1. NHRef

    NHRef Member+

    Apr 7, 2004
    Southern NH
    I recently posted a topic something like "how does your SRC communicate with you" (SRC = State Referee committee") because my local state (NH) is trying to find ways to improve communication with all the refs.

    The answers I got back were interesting, things like "who?" to "they don't" to "over beer" :)
    Communication is an issue. I know for a fact whenever USSF makes an official change/clarification/statement/position paper, the SRA, SYRA, SDI, SDA all get it. So the "top" is pushing the info out. What's your local folks doing with it? That's the issue.

    Things like RTS, if you are sending G7, or states to it, then why aren't they bringing the information back to your state to be distributed locally by the SRC.?

    The info is there, its a communication issue that MOSTLY rests on your state/organization.

    There's also the monthly USSF email to ALL refs. If you aren't getting this, then something is wrong, probably with your US Soccer.info account.
     
  2. Paper.St.Soap.Closed

    Jul 29, 2010
    NHRef, we are in agreement -- mostly.

    1. The point is, for topics like we're discussing in this thread they are not communicated officially but rather by word of mouth "Herb said..."
    2. I was an admin for several years. I got those emails you speak of. They were sparse, at best. Relying on your G7/6/5 referees to bring back the message from RTS is a bit like carrying a thimble of water back from the river... some will spill out.
     
  3. Eastshire

    Eastshire Member+

    Apr 13, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Not really, no. I'm a little fish in a big pond. I get my instruction from the middle sized fish in that pond. I'm working the game the way I'm instructed by those middle-sized fish. I get that instruction from recert clinics and working in the field with them. I don't think it's my place to skip them and go to the SDI. So I work the game the way they teach me.

    So bottom line for me, the grade 8 youth referee, is it's nice what Mr. Silva and Mr. Geiger's opinions are, but what I really care about is my local instructor's opinion. Otherwise, I'm going to be the only guy in my district doing it that way.
     
  4. Rafal Wlazlo

    Rafal Wlazlo Member

    Jan 22, 2013
    New York, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I understand. Keep in mind though that while Mr. Geiger weigh in the opinion, Mr. Silva lays the Law. But I understand where you're coming from. You should be able to get this information right at the local level and not as a "he said, she said" from me.
     
  5. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I loved the semi-circle . . .

    And maybe I'm being obtuse, but I'll also confess that I'm still unclear on where the official line is with what we're hearing.

    I think (?) we would all agree that if the defender dribbled controlled the ball, the attackers (anticipating a long pass) all fell back from the PA rather than challenging, and then the defender dribbled the ball over to where the keeper was waiting for him, that would be a "pass back" offense.

    But (as I think we are being told), if it is more of a bang-bang play where the defender briefly gains control, and as he begins to dribble amongst the chaos the GK pounces on the ball, even though the defender was deliberately dribbling, it is not an offense. (I would have considered this a technical but trifling offense prior to the past several pages; I have to admit that though I have no problem with it as something that should not be called, 6 pages later I'm still murky on why it is not technically an offense.)

    And in between, I gather we have the gray, in which I suppose we are called upon to focus upon the SOTG as noted in 12.20 note(b) ("Although this portion of the Law was written to help referees cope with timewasting tactics, the central issue is unfairly withholding the ball from challenge."), and decide whether the action is either wasting time or unfairly withholding the ball from challenge. Which, I suppose, brings us back to my favorite ATR word:
    Fingerspitzengefühl.
     
  6. R.U. Kiddingme

    Nov 30, 2012
    iowa
    I tend to be a bit gullible, not really a good trait to have out on the pitch, is it.:unsure:
     
  7. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    socal...I think I saw this happen this past weekend in the English League. A defender controlled a loose ball on the near post, and about a half second later the 'keeper came and collected it. I think we are visualizing the play as if the defender started to navigate out of the area with the ball, and the 'keeper THEN came and collected. I would have a hard time not calling that type of play.

    BTW, Mr. Geiger was our SDI for awhile, but not anymore.
     
  8. R.U. Kiddingme

    Nov 30, 2012
    iowa
    Don't we have to throw out the word "dribbling"?
    As that is not addressed in this section of the ATR (or anywhere?).
    What is dribbling? Is dribbling only using your feet? Then yes that would be a violation because the ATR states that the ball being played with the feet as satisfying a requirement.
    Is it considered dribbling if player is bouncing the ball on his head or thighs? Then no because the ball CAN be passed to the keeper without using your feet.
    Dribbling is generally considered kicking the ball with your feet a small distance repeatedly.
    We don't want to go into trying to figure out how far the ball has to be "kicked" until the dribbling becomes "kicking".
    That is why the phrase "played with the foot" is used.
    So, IF the defender was KICKING the ball repeatedly, and, is in full control, and, in doing so, kicked (no matter how far it is kicked) the ball to a place where the keeper can legally touch it (not deflected or mis-directed), and, the keeper then picks the ball up, then what other conclusion can we come up with according to the ATR?
     
  9. Rafal Wlazlo

    Rafal Wlazlo Member

    Jan 22, 2013
    New York, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Which game?? I smell a new blog post about it on our site
     
  10. Rafal Wlazlo

    Rafal Wlazlo Member

    Jan 22, 2013
    New York, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not going there again :sick:
     
  11. wguynes

    wguynes Member

    Dec 10, 2010
    Altoona, IA
    You really can't blame them.

    They're trying to find guidance on how to distinguish "kicked to own goal keeper who handles it" and "attempts to dribble away, but own keeper pounces on it" when they see it. This is as it should be.
     
  12. Rafal Wlazlo

    Rafal Wlazlo Member

    Jan 22, 2013
    New York, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I can not offer any more guidance other than what I already offered, along with the answer from Herb who lays down the law for USSF referees. I guess it's up to individual referees to decide which advice they want to take- Local or Herb. I take Herb anytime.
     
  13. Eastshire

    Eastshire Member+

    Apr 13, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    It's not that. If we take Silva's advice, when does a kick become a dribble? We don't know because 1)dribble is not a defined term and 2)dribbling is just a series of kicks.

    So other than the "I know it when I see it" definition, when does kicking become dribbling and vis-versa?
     
  14. Rafal Wlazlo

    Rafal Wlazlo Member

    Jan 22, 2013
    New York, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh boy, it doesn't take wikipedia to answer this question (no offense). This question was already answered by your and my higher-up. Whether it's kicking or dribbling (not that it makes any diffrence for the purpose of this question) the answer is still "play on".
     
  15. Rafal Wlazlo

    Rafal Wlazlo Member

    Jan 22, 2013
    New York, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Besides, didn't you already make it clear that "what I really care about is my local instructor's opinion. Otherwise, I'm going to be the only guy in my district doing it that way."?
     
  16. Doug the Ref

    Doug the Ref Member

    Dec 6, 2005
    St. Louis
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Can someone define the meaning of "it"? asked Bill Clinton :)
     
  17. GKbenji

    GKbenji Member+

    Jan 24, 2003
    Fort Collins CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Except that I didn't talk to Herb. All I read was some posts on the internet (and of course, I believe everything I read on the internet ;)). I have no problem with your/Herb's interpretation, but I don't feel like I can change what I was instructed in an official recert class simply based on this thread or an online quiz. As others have pointed out, we need better communication through official channels.
     
  18. sm. town ref

    sm. town ref Member

    Aug 24, 2009
    Canada
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    No problem....
    I don't think there is anything "written" down, at least that I have access to. I have however seen, on different occasions, at 2 entry level clinics and 1 instructor clinic, this "gentleman" phrase it almost word for word that way. He is in the referee development person in our province, and basically "god" in our area.... so you have to see where I'm coming from.

    I do have to say that your website is an AWESOME tool, and the questions are less confusing than some of the things I have access to in Canada.

    I will throw another question to you (I have not had a chance to work through all the quizzes yet). The USSF mechanic for an AR to signal a penalty kick is the "fig leaf" correct? This is not in LOTG so you may not use it.... My instruction is to run to the corner flag. Again, not "written" down anywhere, but there it is.
     
  19. Eastshire

    Eastshire Member+

    Apr 13, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I'm really not trying to be difficult, but I don't think you really appreciate the can of worms you've opened. The definition of dribbling for the purpose of the LotG is non-obvious and the LotG does not define the term. If we allow that a keeper is allowed to come and take a ball that his teammate is dribbling but the teammate kicking the ball to the same spot for the keeper to pick up would be a violation, the we need to know how to differentiate between kicking and dribbling.

    In basketball, the only difference between dribbling and (bounce) passing the ball is who touches it last. So that's not helpful if we're going to allow this. That's the only other sport I work which defines dribbling so I'm at a loss to find a workable definition.

    It occurs to me though that Silva may be focusing more on it not being a violation due to the player not having intended for the keeper to come and take the ball. That actually fits my understanding of the ATR. Is Silva saying it's not a violation because it was dribbled rather than kicked (which, frankly, I think is a distinction without a difference) or because the player had no intention of playing the ball to the keeper?

    Just because I'm going to continue to call the game the way I'm instructed to, doesn't mean I'm not interested in the discussion of what Silva has said.
     
  20. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    I'm thinking it was Chelsea v. Arse. Cech picked it up first half? I'm wildly guessing but I think that is where I saw it.
     
  21. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I don't think the question remaining is the one from your quiz that started the whole discussion. At least from my perspective, the question is, accepting that is an example of a non-infraction, when do we move from "not an infraction" to "is an infraction"?

    There has to be a line somewhere (however gray it might be around the edges). Those of us who thought that it was an infraction thought that tne intent of the ATR was to draw a bright-line test such the ball deliberately being kicked + the ball going to the GK, however it got there + the GK using his hands always = infraction (which must then be evaluated as to whether it was trifling). Those three things would seem to be met in the example, as we beat to death above.

    OK, fine. Whether it is a trifling infraction that I don't call or whether it's not an infraction at all doesn't change how to call this precise play. But I'm far less interested in this precise play than in how the powers that be want us to make a decision on the next play.

    While we have now spent a couple of days arguing about angels dancing on the head of a pin as it applies to this scenario (and I sometimes wonder if some of us are also picturing the actual game event differently, too), and I have to reconsider how to best explain this to novice referees or coaches, I don't think this discussion has actually changed anything I would whsitle or not whistle were it to arise in the game, as I have always had a pretty generous view of trifling on these calls.
     
  22. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    Always more difficult to "see" something written than to actually see it! I bet 99 out of 100 of us on this board would recognize the play when we saw it but only HALF of us would recognize the play when we "saw" it.
     
  23. Rafal Wlazlo

    Rafal Wlazlo Member

    Jan 22, 2013
    New York, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Please don't take me too seriously. I have a unique sense of humor. I totally understand, seriously. Our instructions are at time worlds apart by the time it gets to local levels. It is very unfortunate. To answer your question - yes the dribble/kick part is irrelevant because of the "debated" intent on the defender's part dribbling the ball which I claimed was not present and thus negated the infringement (in short).
     
  24. Rafal Wlazlo

    Rafal Wlazlo Member

    Jan 22, 2013
    New York, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ...and untill the USSF comes with official and clear position on this and many other "small" parts of ATR we will have plenty to brain storm here about. Which is not bad at all if you think about it. You just made me read entire Law 12 today (again)...
     
  25. JimEWrld

    JimEWrld Member

    Jun 20, 2012
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Shifting gears to a different question........

    The Referee awarded a Penalty Kick during a rainy match. After the Referee's whistle, the kick was properly taken, but the ball got stuck in a mud after it travelled about three yards toward the goal. At that moment two opponents got into a fist fight with each other. What should the Referee do?

    Answer: Send Off both opponents for fighting and award an Indirect Free Kick to the defending team

    I understand the send offs..... but where is the IFK for the defending team coming from? The team taking the PK did nothing wrong (except taking a horrible shot). Shouldn't this be an IFK for the attacking team or at worst a dropped ball? (That was the answer I chose....)
     

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