News: What it would mean to play in the winter, weather-wise

Discussion in 'MLS: News & Analysis' started by ElJefe, Jan 4, 2013.

  1. The Devil's Architect

    Feb 10, 2000
    The American Steppe
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Much like the clown that green lit the new Chief Noc-A-Homa hats in Atlanta, some people are just clueless.
     
  2. chiladd

    chiladd Member+

    Mar 21, 1999
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    It's 24 right now in Chicago, and we are in the middle of warm spell.I'm not going to translate celsius as its a dumb way to measure weather temps.
    Also, who advocates a fall to spring schedule is a fool.of the 19 current teams its only feasible for 5, and would dampen any further northern expansion.summer heat soccer sucks, but that is somwhat fixed with night games.there is no winter solution that isn't 500 million per team.
     
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  3. Q*bert Jones III

    Q*bert Jones III The People's Poet

    Feb 12, 2005
    Woodstock, NY
    Club:
    DC United
    [​IMG]

    I mean, I guess I just assumed that this stupid, moronic, idiotic, doltish foolishness was settled already.
     
  4. patricksp

    patricksp 91.9 Crew Fan Rating

    Nov 4, 2007
    Columbus
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lets not forget this before the Crew played RSL in the CCL
     
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  5. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    MLS could play in the first two weeks of Dec and within the last two weeks of Feb.

    And they could take off 4-5 weeks in June/July (that monthly period when FIFA or the Confederations usually seem to have some biggish competition going on).

    An 8 or so week down period in the cold weather, and a 4 or 5 week down period from league play when it is warmer/warmest might one day or season(s) work for MLS.

    Won't know if or how this would exactly logistically work for MLS, but it will be interesting to see what things they do and/or do not try in the years ahead.
     
  6. RafaLarios

    RafaLarios Member+

    Oct 2, 2009
    Medellín
    Club:
    Atletico Nacional
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    this is a joke isn't it??
     
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  7. MLS1FAN

    MLS1FAN Member+

    May 11, 2004
    Miami Beach,FL
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  8. EvilTree

    EvilTree Member+

    Canadian S.C
    Canada
    Nov 20, 2007
    Frozen Swampland, Soviet Canuckistan
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Mid march is still pushing it in Canada and US northeast...
     
  9. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    It certainly is (and in many other parts of the US outside of the NE as well).

    And games on the fringes of winter (be those MLS games scheduled in Nov/Dec or Feb/March), very likely could see small(-ish) crowds and/or need to be rescheduled when conditions are too harsh and unplayable.

    (And playing competitive 90 minutes of soccer in most of July/Aug is "pushing it" in most of the US -- if we're going to consider -- in some fashion as well -- what it means to play in the summer, weather-wise.)

    I'm just of the opinion that if MLS is going to have about 12-13 weeks "off" from league play in a calendar year, it might not make the most sense for their overall business in the future to put all of those "off" weeks successively in Dec/Jan/Feb, but to perhaps place a few (if not almost a comparable number) of those "off" weeks in the summer.
     
  10. EvilTree

    EvilTree Member+

    Canadian S.C
    Canada
    Nov 20, 2007
    Frozen Swampland, Soviet Canuckistan
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    logistical burden to reschedule games would be pretty tough, esp with TV contracts and likely having to reschedule a game to a weekend to a weekday game. a lot of teams still rely on gate receipts
     
  11. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not sure this makes as much sense as you do. How many US/Canadian leagues have a large midseason breaks. Yea, the NBA/NHL/MLB takes a few days for an All-Star break but pretty much every season runs start to finish without a major break. The momentum lost from a possible MLS break in a crowded sports market may hurt as much, if not more, than playing a minimal number of games through major international tournaments. We see posters here who said that when MLS took a break for the WC or Euros that they kind of lost focus on the season.
     
  12. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    Agreed, it would be a logistical burden, and it might not be one that MLS ever wants to take on. But long term, and perhaps as "gate receipts" may become less of a significant bottom line issue for teams (perhaps as sponsorship and tv revenues or other revenues start to uptick, perhaps drastically), then Garber's talk of behaving (and scheduling) more and more like other top leagues could mean MLS plays/schedules in some colder weather (and doesn't have 3 straight months off when FIFA isn't holding international competitions).

    I'm not sure it makes sense to create "two breaks" (one in the winter and one in the summer) each year for MLS. But I do think it is an option that the BoG and the Competition Committee may be considering at some level now, and certainly may be an option that they might try to pursue and implement at some point (maybe even by the time the US and/or Canada finds itself hosting a senior Men's World Cup again).

    And I'm not certain that MLS is only looking at other "US/Canadian leagues" and how they set their schedules, but MLS is likely also looking at other top soccer leagues around the world and seeing the possible/available scheduling realities -- and which of those might work best for their business as a soccer league in the future. (in 5 or 10 or 15 years, will MLS find itself wanting to schedule similar to how MLB does with a long winter off-sason, or for the business of MLS will it be more useful and relevant to consider and perhaps mimic slightly how the German or Russian or other "top" soccer leagues set a schedule with breaks?)


    There are perhaps lots of decent reasons for MLS to shorten the amount of down time they have in Dec/Jan/Feb, and there are also a few decent reasons to establish some kind of permanent break in the summer schedule. And yes, there are also a good number of reasons (and some of them certainly better reasons) for MLS not to significantly change up the early-Spring to late-Fall schedule they've traditionally used since 1996.
     
  13. EvilTree

    EvilTree Member+

    Canadian S.C
    Canada
    Nov 20, 2007
    Frozen Swampland, Soviet Canuckistan
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    well, there is also the marketing aspect as well. poorly attended games does not look good on TV and hard to sell to skeptical US soccer fans
     
  14. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    Absolutely, there are many angles they will consider as MLS runs its overall business, and perhaps weighs any possible operational/scheduling changes.

    Any changes MLS will make will be changes of the future, ideally when there is such a time when there will be fewer "skeptical" fans who have yet to embrace the league.

    A change (if it were to happen) to how MLS sets their season schedule, will be a business decision made by a mature business. Not a a decision that is made hastily or quickly (or while the league isn't yet done expanding/establishing itself, quiet frankly).

    Do we have any idea how "poorly" attended MLS league games would be in early Dec or late Feb (in 2017, or more perhaps more realistically in 2022 or 2027)?
     
  15. frobisherthepenguin1

    Jun 6, 2008
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    So send the Canadian and NE USA teams on a road trip in late February/early March. A mid-season road trip is surely less hurtful than starting the season on the road, because that always puts you behind the 8-ball.
     
  16. MLS1FAN

    MLS1FAN Member+

    May 11, 2004
    Miami Beach,FL
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We are revisiting this argument again, it seems as if it will never go away! But as the league inches closer to becoming one of the world's top league as Garber desire it to be, we'll hear this debate more often in the years to come. But what is more intriguing to me is that we are even having a debate about this at all. When you look at it, what are we even debating? No one out of MLS league offices in New York has called for the league to switch schedules and play a fall to spring format like in England or Spain, which would mean that league play would go through the entire winter with competitions in January and February into the spring months.

    What Garber has called for with a schedule change is, basically to have league play with in the same window of months the league currently plays within only flipping the league start from early March (In Spring) to August (Fall). The league current format is Spring to Fall, Garber is calling for Fall to Spring with a winter break from mid December through mid February. Basically all the league would be doing is flipping the start of the season by playing through the fall the first half of the season until mid December and restarting the second half of the season mid February after a winter break. Basically the start of the second half of the season would be roughly when the MLS currently start their season now. So with a season schedule flip from Spring to Fall to a Fall to Spring and basically playing in the same months the leagues currently plays now just in reverse wouldn't change anything for the fans of the league. So what is the debate about?

    The only difference here is the league wouldn't start their new schedule in March (Spring to Fall) like currently and instead would start their new season in August (Fall to Spring). As for the early December and late February matches, the league could work out the schedule for 1 to 3 weeks to where colder weather MLS teams could play in the last two weeks of December in Domed stadiums and in warmer MLS cities. The same could be done for a few weeks in Feburary into March for the start of the second half of a Fall to Spring schedule to benefit all including the fans. It could work out fine, the fans just have to rap their minds around this kind of schedule change and I'm sure it wouldn't be the end of the world!

    Also consider having the MLS Cup in June could be better for TV rating due to not having much competition from other domestic sports leagues for the spotlight. Sure the NBA would be rapping up their season in early June and the NHL would have already crown their champion in late May, versus what we have currently in the fall. The MLS is currently competing against the NFL, College Football, the end of the World Series and the start of both the NHL and NBA seasons for the spot light. Considering all a Fall to Spring schedule maybe a better thing for the league in the long run regarding MLS Cup TV ratings versus what we currently have now.
     
    frobisherthepenguin1 repped this.
  17. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    1. That *isn't* the current footprint of the season, so there would necessarily be a change, unlike what you are saying, which is that there wouldn't be a footprint change to the season. That doesn't include that half of the teams don't currently play during November each year. Also, with that sort of a switch you have the main rebuilding section of the schedule right in the middle of the season, because that's where the largest gap is. Also, you have to think about the fitness of players over a 2-month gap in the season. Basically, you have an offseason in the middle of your season. How does that work to increase the level of the sport in this country?

    2. What domed stadiums exist in Denver, Salt Lake City, Chicago, Washington D.C, Kansas City, Philadelphia, New York City, Columbus, or Boston? The only northern teams which even have a nearby option for a domed stadium are Toronto and Montreal.

    3. The NBA playoffs ran until June 21 last year. Sure the finals started 5 days later than normal, but they also only went to 5 of the possible 7 games, so seeing a June 21 end is definitely not out of the question for a normal year. There will be significant overlap of the MLS playoffs with the NBA playoffs. Right now, there is only overlap with the end of the college football regular season, the middle of the NFL season, and, if it goes the full 7 games, potentially a game or two of the World Series.

    I'm not saying that there is no possibility of a Fall-Winter-Spring schedule at some point in the future of MLS. I am, however, saying that I don't see it happening at all in the next 5 years, and would be extremely surprised to see it happen within 10. It is pointless to discuss it right now, because it won't happen until major things change with where this league makes its money.
     
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  18. El Naranja

    El Naranja Member+

    Sep 5, 2006
    Alief
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And even in those 5 cities, outside of LA, you're still rolling the dice. There have been blizzards in Dallas, Houston was a solid block of ice, "Snowmageddon" in Seattle (iirc) and so forth. All in recent memory. I just don't see MLS having the fanbase to risk that in the near future.
     
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  19. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    Agreed for the most part.

    But, people want to ask the question, and the league does need to plan (and plan for) its future.

    When Goff asked Garber, Garber actually (somewhat) answered the question. He didn't respond with some version of "It is pointless to discuss it right now."
     
  20. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    If the league is going to play "in the winter" (or parts of it), then the league will likely still need to have a (long) break for (all of) January, and beyond in many/several markets.

    There are certainly challenges to scheduling in parts of Dec and Feb, but this discussion of MLS hypothetically playing "in the winter" doesn't actually need to include the thought and and analysis of MLS playing/scheduling in January.

    Take a look at the Bundesliga schedule -- after all, MLS does have or did have a business/operations/"idea-sharing" partnership with them.

    Or, take a look at how Russia has made the change to their league schedule, and the challenges they have faced. (and they still pushed ahead with the switch, in spite of the difficulties. MLS could operationally find itself wanting/needing to make such a change at some point, in a decade, or whenever.)

    and as an unrelated and non-helpful weather forecasting note, it is supposedly going to be around 60-65 degrees in DC on Jan 12-13. (not that that is at all normal or what MLS could count on in "the winter.")
     
  21. El Naranja

    El Naranja Member+

    Sep 5, 2006
    Alief
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But why roll the dice? What need would MLS fill that they don't currently have? It won't be for the same reason as Russia (CL). Avoiding the hot weather doesn't help since that is fairly predictable and easy enough to work around. I don't see TV/sponsorship as being a motivator since they probably love having us during the relatively slow part of the sports calendar.
     
  22. MLS1FAN

    MLS1FAN Member+

    May 11, 2004
    Miami Beach,FL
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You have some good points, anything is possible and I'll never put a time frame on anything with regards to this league. With more expansion especially to the Southeast a schedule switch could be very possible sooner than later. But I don't see a shift in scheduling until after more expansion into the Southeast and that's not for a couple of years at the least...anything could happen! A few years ago many wrote off having the MLS Cup at the home stadium of the top seeded team to make the MLS finals, they said it would not happen anytime soon or at all and some said not for another 10 years or so. Today we are there and it looks like it's a system the league will keep around in the future.

    As for domed stadiums, all the Canadian MLS teams have access to domed stadiums and it's possible to play in Seattle, Portland, Philadelphia, New York, DC and possibly Kansas City in November and December. As for New England, Columbus, Chicago, Denver and Salt Lake maybe it's more difficult in late November and early December. But those teams could be playing away from their home stadiums for the last 3 weeks before the winter break.

    Now in February, I can see that month as more of a real challenge because the February winters in the Northeast (Philly, New York, DC and New England) and the North/Midwest (Chicago, Columbus, Kansas City, Denver and Salt Lake City) are more brutal and all of those Northeast and North/Midwest teams would have to rotate a off week into their schedules for the start of the second half of the season while the other teams without an off week could play teams with access to domed stadiums or teams with less harsh winter conditions such as in the Pacific Northwest. By mid March the conditions should be fine for many of those MLS teams in Northeast and Nortern cities, the real challenge would be the first two weeks of mid February and the first week of March and by late March Toronto and Montreal are back in their MLS home stadiums.

    As for competing with the NBA finals, June is a less hectic time of the domestic sporting calender and could be more beneficial for the league's MLS Cup ratings than November/December is currently.
     
  23. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    To push the league forward, perhaps by trying something "new/different" -- to see if "improvements" can be found for the overall business?

    Why expand to Canada? Why push for a second team in NYC and work to get a venue built in Queens?

    Why get rid of the regular-season OT/shoot-out?

    Why take a two-week break for the group stage of the 2010 World Cup?

    MLS as a business is going to quite regularly try new operational practices.

    It might be, in part, that same CL reason (on the Concacaf scale). Maybe MLS might realize they could have a better shot of getting their teams crowned king of the region and on to the CWC if its domestic season better aligned with the regional club championship.

    Or it might be in MLS's future to become a "bigger player" in the player transfer market, and to align MLS's primary and secondary transfer windows with the pri/sec windows of a lot of leagues with which they'll want to do business (and acquire/sell players).

    I doubt the TV partners look forward to putting MLS up against the 2014 WC matches in primetime. What the current tv partners "probably love" right now are those summer friendlies (vs. "big foreign" clubs that actually draw interest/viewers). And there's no reason that MLS "pre-season WFC-type" friendlies still couldn't be marketable "summer fare" for tv networks and viewers.

    Those are the questions MLS will have to analyze (and conditions may change, somewhat, in a decade or two -- or they won't change at all).

    And at some point MLS may "roll the dice." Or, more likely MLS could make the change if/when they consider such a change (to a fall-to-spring schedule with a winter break) something that will be "right" for their business, and won't actually be a "roll of the dice" at all. (If they do in fact guide their business to such a point.)
     
  24. El Naranja

    El Naranja Member+

    Sep 5, 2006
    Alief
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Its not worth it, at the moment, to make any changes in regards to CWC/CCL because the money, tangible or other, just isn't there and I find it hard to believe that it ever will be.

    As for the World Cup being a problem, I do agree that we should try to avoid it as best as possible. A break during group stage and the Final, like in '10, worked just fine. It'll be interesting to see how they handle Brazil since most of those games will overlap(ish) with MLS schedule timewise. But 1/4 years is hardly bad or troublesome. Especially since most WCs will be in locations where broadcasts won't interfere with MLS' scheduling.

    I think by the time MLS is strong enough to not have to "roll the dice", it'll be tradition and momentum that keep us on our current schedule.

    I do find the idea of being a stronger player in the transfer market a fascinating idea, though I'm not sure how we would go about it enough to warrant a change in calendar.
     
  25. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers

    Since the only expansion which seems to be treated seriously at all right now is NY2 (another northern team, I might add), and the stated planned date for that team to start is 2016, 3 years away, I feel quite confident in nothing coming about, with regards to a schedule switch, before 2018, and fairly confident in that for before 2023. I generally avoid time-frames on anything, but this seems quite safe to me, so I stated it.

    I never mentioned Portland, Seattle, or Vancouver as being "northern" teams, because, as much as I wouldn't like it, they really could play at any time of the year. It would really suck, but I would probably still keep my season tickets, were that the case. I don't say that it is impossible to work around those issues, if pushing the end of the fall portion to mid December and the beginning to mid February. It would be very difficult, and I do in fact see that happening fairly soon (possibly even next year because of the World Cup). With the playoffs ending in mid December, you will likely have much less in the way of issues with weather than having a mid-season winter break, because most teams will be out of the competition by that point.

    Switching the schedule so that you have a 2-month gap between games within a season still poses issues of player fitness. You basically still have to hold an in-season training camp, and in-season friendlies similar to current preseason ones to try and maintain player fitness. Such a long break in the season can also kill momentum for a team on a charge as the fall portion ends, particularly as players fall out of fitness, or injure themselves in the lengthy in-season training.

    It also affects when teams have the option of rebuilding. Its very unlikely a team would want to rebuild in the middle of a season unless the first part was absolutely abysmal. Primarily because, if you do that, it is a signal to all of a teams fans that the management has given up on the rest of the season. And trying to rebuild with only a month (because roster rules would prevent player movement during the playoffs) is not exactly a fun prospect, since that isn't even enough time to really even get a team to work together.

    I agree that MLS Cup TV ratings are a concern. However, TV ratings in general with MLS are a big concern, and I'd rather pack large portions of the schedule against the less hectic time than just focus on a few games in said less hectic time. I could go either way (as far as TV ratings are concerned) with the switch, but other things just make it seem unfeasible for quite some time.
     

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