What has happened to the English teams in the CL?

Discussion in 'UEFA and Europe' started by Beticious, Nov 24, 2011.

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  1. Kampfschwein

    Kampfschwein Member

    Jan 3, 2011
    Club:
    Hertha BSC Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    England has currently an 8th berth owing to the UEFA Fair Play rankings. That's how Fulham qualified for Europe this season.
     
  2. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    Well, I counted Udinese as going 1-for-2 (CL: 0/1; EL: 1/1) since they did manage to get through a group stage.
     
  3. evangel

    evangel Member+

    Apr 12, 2007
    I wouldn't use beating this season's Villarreal as an indicator of anything. They're a spot away from relegation in La Liga. The rest of what you said in the post is okay with me.

    As far as the league comparisons go, most here are only using advancement to later rounds as an indicator. The UEFA coefficients uses a points system based on wins, draws, and losses, with bonus points for advancing. Right now, England's teams have a greater amount of points based on this. Italy might have had 3 teams advance in the CL, and 2 in the EL, but they all did so in second place, often barely scraping by. That affects the coefficients quite a lot. Even with all the Champions League bonus points, there still quite a ways off from England's points.

    I kind of think England has done fairly well. They're still in first in the coefficients, even with an extra team, which tends to hurt the coefficients. That can change rather quickly, though, as many bonus points are awarded for advancing to later rounds. If England's teams get eliminated quickly from here on out, then it will certainly be a major failure.
     
  4. Cavani7

    Cavani7 Member

    Jan 13, 2011
    Napoli
    Club:
    SSC Napoli
    Nat'l Team:
    Uruguay
    Talking about EL in a CL thread....
     
  5. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    True, although both Arsenal and Chelsea ended up with 11 points in the group stage (same as Napoli), while Stoke also finished 2nd in their group. Not exactly crushing the opposition.

    I think what this shows is that to rank high in the UEFA coefficient ranking the qualifying rounds are actually the most important. You've got to win your CL qualifiers (to get the bonus points) and you've got to get through the EL qualifiers (to get guaranteed 6 matches). If you don't, then even success in the group phase will only have a limited impact (e.g. Italy are 6th place right now for 2011/12).
     
  6. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Champions League bonus points are 4 for reaching the Group Stage, 5 for reaching the Round of 16, 1 for reaching the Quarterfinals, 1 for reaching the Semifinals, and 1 for reaching the Final. Most of the bonus points for 2011-2012 have already been given out.
     
  7. 96Squig

    96Squig Member

    Feb 4, 2004
    Hanover
    Club:
    Hannover 96
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Welcome to Manchester!

    As for the general topic: Up to the group stage England did great, whereas Spain and Germany already lost a team then. The group stage then went much worse for England than it did for the other 3 big countries, that will be hard to deny. I don't know if that makes their performance worse than the ones of the other countries, probably not. It certainly makes it worse than in recent years, whereas the other countries are arguably as strong/weak as usual. So, instead of being dominating as usual England is now on par at best, maybe even a bit below Italy (who woulda thunk?)
     
  8. evangel

    evangel Member+

    Apr 12, 2007
    I know. That paragraph didn't come out the way I intended. I meant to say that, since England didn't accumulate as many of those massive 5 point CL bonus points for going past the group stage (they missed 10 more potential points), then any elimination from here on out will hurt the league more than usual, at least as far as maintaining first place in the coefficients goes.

    Of course, the bigger reason why that would be bad is simply the lack of more matches for gaining points from victories. This goes to what BocaFan said a few posts up, that qualifying rounds are very important. If a team doesn't qualify, it can really hurt it's countries coefficients for that year.
     
  9. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  10. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
  11. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    For one, talking about eras of European dominance, citing Germany in the 70s (3 wins) and Italy in the 80s (3 wins) and neglecting the period of 7 English wins in 8 seasons in the middle of that.


    I think he's right that Barcelona and to a lesser extent Real Madrid, are giants at a time when the top English sides are faltering, but evidence of Serie A and the Bundesliga taking over are scant to say the least.
     
  12. Emperor_Norton

    Jun 14, 2007
    Well, Bayern are certainly better than Chelsea or Arsenal, but Leverkusen are going to lose against Barca - hence it is of course a little bit too much to claim that the Bundesliga is "Taking over", when in fact there is only one team which is better than anything the PL has to offer.
     
  13. lost

    lost Member

    May 24, 2006
    England
    bayern are not certainly better than arsenal or chelsea and i would confortably back the two epl sides over bayern, even with the second leg in munich.
     
  14. Emperor_Norton

    Jun 14, 2007
    Good for you. If you put money on it, you can become a rich man ;).
     
  15. lost

    lost Member

    May 24, 2006
    England
    afraid not, arsenal and chelsea will be favourites so i wont make shit. you, the other hand, would stand to triple your money in the unlikely event that bayern progress.
     
  16. Emperor_Norton

    Jun 14, 2007
    Can you please tell me the name of your bookie? That sounds too good to be true.
     
  17. lost

    lost Member

    May 24, 2006
    England
    as long as you send me the money in nice, freshly printed deutshemarks and not euros ill place the bet for you
     
  18. evangel

    evangel Member+

    Apr 12, 2007
    So Basel has become that good of a team in your eyes?

    Beating the great, unbeatable Man Utd makes you a favorite for the tournament in lost's eyes.
     
  19. lost

    lost Member

    May 24, 2006
    England
    is there any internet shorthand for telling people to 'please read the fkicng post before posting?'. progress v arsenal or chelsea, einstein, not fking basle.
     
  20. evangel

    evangel Member+

    Apr 12, 2007
    So you didn't write this:

    Last I checked progress depends on who you're facing.
     
  21. lost

    lost Member

    May 24, 2006
    England
    we were clearly discussing bayern v arsenal chelsea. context. if you dont read any of the discussion, how on earth will you know what the hell people are talking about?
     
  22. Cavani7

    Cavani7 Member

    Jan 13, 2011
    Napoli
    Club:
    SSC Napoli
    Nat'l Team:
    Uruguay
    Why do you think that? I actually watched Bayern in the CL this year and I rate them behind Barca and REAL. Don't take into consideration their last game against City because that was a joke game for them.
     
  23. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    None of your busines
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    It's a really good one to be honest, too bad it doesn't actually exist. :D
     
  24. evangel

    evangel Member+

    Apr 12, 2007
    You mean from this post:

    I thought you were referring to backing the two EPL sides to advancing over Bayern in the current Round of 16, since that's what people were talking about before.

    It entertainment purposes it would be great to see you place a bet for Basel against Bayern. Since they're not that good, then they shouldn't be able to get through a team that beat an English one, right?
     
  25. lost

    lost Member

    May 24, 2006
    England
    look, nothing you say is going to make me feel any worse about how our cl season went at united. total case of tortoise and the hare, spastic management from the brits, wouldnt and couldnt happen in germany.

    obviously bayern are going to rip basel to peices, i even noticed on the bayern board some people were dissapointed to get such a pointless little team with no possiblity for drama.

    i may be selling bayern a little short, and they have made strides in recent years it would appear. but there is no way im going to agree with anyone who makes sweeping statements like 'obviously bayern wd beat chelse and arsenal'. the absolute and inconteravertable truth that no buli fan can escpae is the fact that the top end of the premier league is , wether in a good year or a bad, absolutely light years ahead of anything in germany. we have 6 sides that could win the bl, that would all be guaranteed to runner up to bayern at the very worst if they played to even a fraction of their potential for, what is it, 34 games. seriously, the head to head shows it, the positions in later stages of the cl absolutely proves it, the budgets, the quality of managers, the 'stars' , the wages, the exposure, all of it.

    please, i like debate and its nice you have faith in your sides, but bayern have had their final for the decade, and im sure at least 1 year this decade another german side will make a final and maybe win, maybe shalkes turn this decade, but get some perspective and drop the fantasy. german sides do not do well in the european cup.
     

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