What has happened to the English teams in the CL?

Discussion in 'UEFA and Europe' started by Beticious, Nov 24, 2011.

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  1. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Yes - but City in particular has spent the last 3 years grossly inflating UK wages.

    170k per week for Nasri and Ade and co?

    LOL

    At the same time English teams are not importing top talent at the same rates they were because the talent is now priced appropriately.

    So you see teams like Arsenal, Utd, Liverpool and Chelsea with bloated payrolls yet worse teams.
     
  2. Pyros

    Pyros Member

    Sep 6, 2009
    La Coruña
    Club:
    Valencia CF
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    But shouldn't teams in other leagues suffer from the same as well? That inflation should be affecting everyone, not just english teams, since all players would be looking for the highest wages they can get whether in the Premier League or any other league.

    I think the problem is English teams failed in a lot of signings, while teams in other leagues signed players with better judgement.
     
  3. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Yes but there is not complete freedom of movement.

    In theory loads of cheap Spanish players (the wage market has collapsed outside the big 2) should be able to go to england and get contracts there.

    But of course they don't because they are under contract.

    In the past - English teams could use their extra purchasing power to snare top talent at good prices. But now continental teams demand top dollar for their talent.

    Add to that the fall in value of the pound and England has suddenly lost a lot of wage competitiveness.

    It stares you right in the face when you see signings like Downing, Young etc at big money and stupid wages compared to previous signings like Nani or Helb or Alonso.
     
  4. Pyros

    Pyros Member

    Sep 6, 2009
    La Coruña
    Club:
    Valencia CF
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    So they are losing competitiveness because they don't develop talent on their own league, they have to snatch it from elsewhere, other leagues have realized this and now are asking for bigger fees to sell their players, basically that sums it up?
     
  5. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    Their coefficient looks good because of Real Madrid and Barca. People who thought Bundesliga would overtake Spain were jumping the gun. Not only will that not happen, Spain will likely overtake England for #1 soon.

    But again, it's because of Madrid and Barca. Even La Liga's #3 failed in a pretty easy Champions League group. La Liga is a 2-team league and it sucks. :cool:
     
  6. Dohahah

    Dohahah Member

    Feb 21, 2012
    US, Qatar
    Club:
    Al Sadd SC Doha
    Nat'l Team:
    Qatar
    You're looking at this the wrong way.

    English teams have dominated the champions league for a good number of years.

    2004-05: Liverpool winners
    2005-06: Arsenal runners-up
    2006-07: Liverpool runners-up
    2007-08: Manchester United winners, Chelsea runners-up
    2008-09: Manchester United runners-up
    2009-10: none
    2010-11: Manchester United runners-up

    Let's take a look at the number of English teams in the final four since 2005:
    2004-05: 2/4 English teams
    2005-06: 1/4 English teams
    2006-07: 3/4 English teams
    2007-08: 3/4 English teams
    2008-09: 3/4 English teams
    2009-10: none
    2010-11: 1/4 English teams

    So out of a possible 28 final four slots since 2005, English teams occupied 13.
    And out of a possible 14 final slots since 2005, English teams occupied 7.

    Counting the past winners since the start of the 21st century is not the right way of knowing which country dominated the champions league in the past couple of years because it does not reflect the true indication of the individual league strengths.

    Every big four English team reached a champions league final since 2005. In Spain and Italy only 2 of their big teams made it to the finals.

    The superiority of the EPL is not a myth - it is a fact.
     
  7. Pyros

    Pyros Member

    Sep 6, 2009
    La Coruña
    Club:
    Valencia CF
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    I know, but it so happens that Madrid and Barsa are part of La Liga, maybe people should have had that present befoore yapping their mouth. And our CL group wasn't that easy, BL and Premiers #2, it wasn't the most difficult group but it certainly wasn't the easiest. And we did our part towards the coefficient by knocking out an English team yesterday :cool:
     
  8. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    English football has a similar problem to english rugby.

    it is an incredibly rich league, but for some reason it costs too much money to produce top english talent.

    So England is not competitive as a talent producer.

    Up to the peak in 2008, the answer was the same in both rugby and football.

    Use commercial muscle to attract the top talent.

    This produces a very powerful league.

    However you can beyond that point, as we have seen lately, where stupid contracts have been handed out that have grossly inflated prices.

    In other words, if 70k used to buy Hleb but not only gets Arteta, but in Spain 70k still buys Hleb - then you have lost competitiveness
     
  9. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Interestingly these figures would show the tide has gone out pretty decisively after the 2009 final.

    My argument is that 2009 was the high water mark.

    Since that time the English league has a lot of structural issues
     
  10. DaveyGorgeous

    DaveyGorgeous Member+

    Jul 6, 2006
    NYC
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    If you define "domination" by having a greater presence in the knockout rounds, then yes, English squads have dominated the CL in recent years. But, if you define it as producing winners, then no, they have not dominated. "Domination" is a subjective word; hence, your final statement is not a fact.
     
  11. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Th English claim to dominance has always been based on the performance of it's entrants as a whole.

    If Bayern Munich win the next seventeen Champions Leagues, but no other Bundesliga progresses beyond the group stages in that time, that would be less German dominance and more Bayern Dominance.

    OTOH, if German teams make up at least three quarters of the semi finalists for the same period, even their teams only manage a couple of outright titles, I would say that the Bundesliga as a whole has shown better than the other leagues.

    Another angle of argument: the recent period where English teams were dominant also coincided with the emergence of one of the strongest line-ups in football history, in the form of the current Barcelona.

    If not for such an unusually strong, almost certainly legendary team in the mix, the law of averages could have seen perhaps one or two more titles headed to England.
     
  12. DaveyGorgeous

    DaveyGorgeous Member+

    Jul 6, 2006
    NYC
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    "Th English claim to dominance has always been based on the performance of it's entrants as a whole."

    ^Of course. And, I do not dispute that. I have, a few times in the last few posts, praised the English sides for their overall performance in the tournaments. But, IMHO, and in the opinions of others, a league really can't be said to have "dominated" a tournament in the past decade when two other major leagues have claimed more championship victories.
     
  13. evangel

    evangel Member+

    Apr 12, 2007
    That's only true as far as the Champions League goes. Spain has also done exceptionally well in the Europa League over the years, and those points are also important. Spain is now at currently at the top in this year's coefficients (not the 5-year ranking), and it was the Europa League results that ultimately put them over the top.

    The rest of Spain's teams are nowhere near as good as Real Madrid or Barcelona, but you could say the same about practically every other team in the world. Against other teams, those Spanish teams are pretty good.

    And Valencia's group wasn't as easy as Manchester United's group was. :D
     
  14. ITALIA1982

    ITALIA1982 Member

    Jun 14, 2005
    Toronto
    Club:
    AC Milan
    One fact as to why Serie A is behind the BL is simply that Italian teams have lost interest in the Europa League, where as the Germans always try their best in any competition another anology is the WC, Germany is more consistant while Italy has more trophies, as for the Euro Italy does not play as good as WCs.
     
  15. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Another is that in recent seasons they've struggled to get more than one good CL run out of a team in any given year. Sometimes they've had none.
     
  16. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SbUC-UaAxE"]Guns N' Roses - November Rain - YouTube[/ame]
     
  17. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    GN'R. Speaking of once-dominant forces that have lost their way... :p



    Anyhoo, the Champions League is structured to keep as many marketable brands playing in it as possible.

    Even FFP will do more to cement the elite revenue raisers than to bring new contenders into the mix.

    In a more progressive system, you'd give greater prize money to those who exceed expectations like Apoel and Basel, so that they might perpetuate their success and retain their personnel. Instead, Man United will probably still get more prize money than those teams this year. Pathetic really.
     
  18. Pyros

    Pyros Member

    Sep 6, 2009
    La Coruña
    Club:
    Valencia CF
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    But it doesn't. Why would spanish teams get better players for the same money? Both leagues have access to the same market of players, so the teams with more money should get the better players, the only good players Spain would be able to maintain are the homegrown ones.

    If they have lost competitiveness is because they don't develop the same talent other leagues do, not because of money.
     
  19. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    *sigh* Proper data analysis is really lacking here.

    There's nothing dominant about "none" and "1/4". You're just padding the 3-year dominant period with 2 additional years on each end to make it seem longer. Both Spain and Italy did better than England in both 2005-6 and 2009-10. How could you be dominant when you are #3 (or #4)? Dominance implies not only being #1 but also being well ahead of #2.

    So its 3 years of dominance. End of debate.
     
  20. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    They have had the later problem for decades.
     
  21. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The individual season coefficients don't correlate too well with that. Out of the three consecutive seasons England had 3/4, Spain led 2006-2007 (2.375 ahead of England), England led 2007-2008, and Ukraine led 2008-2009 (1.625 ahead of England). The previous two complete seasons have both seen three countries near each other at the top. England didn't win 2009-2010 or 2010-2011 but in both seasons England was closer to first than in 2006-2007 or 2008-2009. In 2009-2010, Germany led with 18.083 followed by England and Spain tied with 17.928 (0.155 behind). In 2010-2011, Portugal led with 18.800 followed by England at 18.357 and Spain at 18.214. During the seven seasons you did, here is how many clubs there were from each country among the Top 4 coefficients:

    2004-2005: England 1, Italy 1, Russia 1, and Netherlands 1 (Spain's top club was Villarreal in 13th)
    2005-2006: Spain 2, England 1, and Romania 1
    2006-2007: England 2 and Spain 2 (Barcelona and Real Madrid were tied for 13th that season and tied for 5th among Spanish clubs behind Espanyol, Sevilla, Osasuna, and Valenica)
    2007-2008: England 3 and Spain 1
    2008-2009: England 2, Spain 1, and Ukraine 1
    2009-2010: Spain 1, Germany 1, Italy 1, and France 1
    2010-2011: Spain 2, England 1, Portugal 1

    Total: England 10, Spain 9, Italy 2, Germany 1, France 1, Portugal 1, Russia 1, Ukraine 1, Netherlands 1, and Romania 1

    By this measure England and Spain have been much better than anybody else.
     
  22. canzano55

    canzano55 Member+

    Jun 23, 2003
    Toronto
    Club:
    AC Milan
    I have to hand it to the Prem and its brand - I just finished watching the Carlington Cup final and even though it was a technically awful match with very little inspiration shown, it was a very exciting game.

    I don't think any other European football league can replace that kind of sports entertainment; the Prem definitely knows how to market its brand.
     
  23. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I'm not sure if you're being tongue-in-cheek or if you truly enjoyed it.

    Either way, it's not that great an advert for Brand EPL as it was basically one of the league's biggest teams, nearly losing to a lower division team.
     
  24. canzano55

    canzano55 Member+

    Jun 23, 2003
    Toronto
    Club:
    AC Milan
    I really did enjoy it.

    I think EPL footie is a little more direct these days then before, but once in a while you get some real exciting matches.
     
  25. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    So after all that mocking and posturing from the Serie A crowd, England has the same number of teams in the QFs as Italy.
     

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