We've been surpassed

It's been a long time coming. It was only a matter of time, but it finally came.

Japan has surpassed us, both in terms of individual quality and as a unit. The gap itself is not significant just yet as we're still within striking distance to turn things around in the coming years, but some serious changes are needed from the grassroots to the domestic league to the national team set-up. Friendly or not, losing by three goals while barely getting past the halfway line until the last 20 minutes of the game is unacceptably humiliating.

Sound off.

We Lost PJS and Kagawa developed into a beast.

On the flip side, we were tied on penalties a few months ago with a lot more on the line. Japan did not create a youth system, change the j league and graduate new talent in 6 months.

Our formation is broken, but we are also experimenting (hopefully) with guys in new places. I think Japan had a lot more to play for, which was one of the reasons given to recalling their european players.

http://youtu.be/MdDN57NbuB8

Lot of similar words back then too.

But 3 years later, lot of the players in this team turned out pretty good.

I'm confident that the tide will eventually turn once again.

I think our AFC squad + PCY > Japans squad. But now, we lost so many crucial players. And like skimmilk said our formation is broken. It's visible in different positions. THe only person who can fix this is a better manager.

Exactly.

Now if the KFA would actually DO something...
Either change the manager or Cho needs to change, as in NO MORE LKH, KJW, AND LYR

That's besides the point. We were outclassed for a large portion of the match in January as well. If I were to do a player-for-player comparison between the two teams, Japan would have the edge.

I beg to differ. Healthy and in form Park Ju-Young and Lee Chung-Yong are probably better than Lee Tadanari and Okazaki Shinji, but Japan's got the edge on most of the other positions, if not all.

Fair enough. We only scored an equalizer after kagawa was hurt. But we also were exhausted after a tough run up.

AND we had CKR then too. And I was critical of him then too.

i think the manager is fine but he needs to do less implementing an more going with what he has. stop playing players out of position just because they are playing in europe. but he is a smart guy he knows when to make changes.

the only area where i feel we have been surpassed is our transition completely from our older slow defenders. notice how Japan dont call up Nakazawa and Tulio anymore. we need to drop and replace LJS and CDR and find suitable replacements. and there are plenty of players who can do so besides Yoon Suk-young, Oh Jae-seok, and Hong-chul.

This is a weak comparison as the match in 1999 was a U-23 match, which not only means the result itself was far less important, but the players who played in that match were easily replaceable.

We were surpassed a long time ago except most people were too delusional to think it.

They have much better fullbacks and we're about the same overall in midfield. So we're getting killed.

Unless we sort our fullback positions, the gap (although small now) will widen at an alarming rate. DR Cha is not a proper fullback. And KYK is not a LB ffs.

I disagree. Looking at Japan's defenders, I have no reason to believe that they couldn't have been exposed with ease had we played with a minimal control of midfield that was needed for our attacking players to test them.

Where they have clearly surpassed us is the entire midfield and how they operate in the final third. Honda, Endo and Hasebe are clearly head and shoulders above Ki Sung-Yong, Lee Yong-Rae and Kim Jung-Woo.

keep in mind also their midfield is way older as well. i feel our midfield prospects (Yoon Bitgaram, Kim Bo-kyung, Gu Ja-cheol, Ki, Nam, etc) are better than theirs. right now though yes they are better as they should be. they are in their primes.

Lee Yong-rae was a short term solution who works hard but doesnt amount to much. Kim Jung-woo is too inconsistent.

This 1999 Olympic squad was heralded as Japan's golden era, and soon became the basis of the Japan's NT squad.

IIRC Park JS, Lee YP, Lee DG, Seol KH, Kim NI, Song JG was in this Olympic team program.

Anyways, my main point is that both squads currently are quite young and lot of things can change in the future, like how it turned out back then.

be that as it may, one thing we always relied on, even if they started a better skilled team on paper is that the only excuse needed was to be playing Nippon. we would gut out wins and draws.

but they didn't bring 'it' today. combine that with our 'K-League' manager's tactics/formation - this was a no brainer. the complete look of apathy and blame on several players faces after the 2nd was inexcusable - talk about giving up? wtf? . where was our heart and steel? were any of you surprised really when Kagawa hit us again so soon? ridiculous to come out for the 2nd half so mentally and tactically ill prepared. and after everything that happened @ the AC and after his rehab, clearly that kid was gonna be 'up' for this match. where was the marking?

most importantly tho, hats off to them, they were clearly the better team at nearly every position.

as Mr. G said, the gaps not so big that things can't be turned around, but just saying that this was a personnel problem is i think a little too easy. i don't think we can say anymore that this was a one off. not the way we played today.

I think the answer is that LYR and KJW are not our top midfielders. I think KSY has similar quality (obv in a totally different position/role) to Honda, koo to Hasebe. KJW has NO place on our current team, and probably the same with LYR because he certainly isn't helping out our crappy defense and does nothing on the other end.

I think kagawa is the major difference in the teams. He's awesome and we have nobody like him right now. We have potential (i.e. Son / Nam) but kagawa is doing it for a top program right now.

Fair point, but Japan's got some prospects of their own in central midfield. That Endo and Hasebe still start is testament to their greatness despite their age, not Japan's shortage of youngsters.

Again, that's a weak comparison. In that particular match, we played with players who were either, 1) easily replaceable or 2) had potential to get better as it was a meager U-23 team. There's no reason to believe that it will be the same this time around. Especially when this match was between the two team's best players. It doesn't take a lot to see that Japan is progressing at a much higher rate than we are. This is a fact.

for those of you who've read soccernomics, what did you think of its dicussion re: the key determinants of success: population size, per capita income, and experience?

japan clearly have a substantial edge on us in the first two departments, and they are apparently spending a lot more money to acquire the third (experience) in the form of foreign managers, coaches, and players.

of course, this doesn't mean that a country can't under or overperform significantly over time (e.g., uruguay). but if the geeks at soccernomics are onto something, we may be in serious trouble. if anything, passion for the sport seems to be at a higher level now in japan compared to korea.

we dont put enough trust in our own league players for some reason. match fixing scandal or not we shouldnt have the same starters every friendly. we have a whole league to find a decent DM so why hasnt this happened.

The KFA and the K-League better get their shit together. That and we need to address how and when we send our players to the military.

It's frustrating to watch the J-League gain support and grow stronger every year. They're a bigger country, but there's no reason why the K-League should struggling so much and be as big of a mess as it currently is. If this continues, we're going to be in serious trouble.

All of the points you've raised are valid and plausible, but what concerns me the most is that Japan has been producing players with better skill and individual quality over the last decade. This do-or-die mentality can only take you so far when the other team has been churning out quality individuals consistently with a proven system. We've "produced" quite a few talented players of our own, but all of our star players today (literally all) have reached their current status by bucking our flawed system. There was no consistent pattern in how the likes of Park Ji-Sung and Lee Chung-Yong developed as players in Korea. In fact, it's no longer possible for a young player in Korea to take Lee Chung-Yong's route due to the draft system.

Agreed.