I agree it's a somewhat irrelevant analogy. In my previous post I was almost going to say that I got owned but than I realized that point of my post was that once Freddy gets more consistent than he should get called up (which you and most people probably agree with). The reason Freddy wasn't allowed that inconsistency is because he was expected to be the next Pele at 18 years of age at Benfica. From 14-17 he was inconsistent but it was allowed and expected (he was still a 2-time MLS all-star) because he was so young. When he was inconsistent at Benfica he was loaned out so many times instead of being able to stay on the bench and develop into a quality player at the club. Do you watch the NBA? Almost every star was inconsistent when they were younger in there career. They always got a lot of minutes on bad teams and developed into stars. Kobe, Durant, John Wall, Bledsoe, Wade, Harden, Westbrook, OJ Mayo etc.etc.etc. It's rare when a player comes in and dominates right away (Lebron, MJ, CP3). And I agree at Freddy's wage maybe it's not worth it to let him develop that consistency. This proves my point though, that if Freddy wasn't that big name player and got a smaller wage he would be allowed to develop into a star player while still being inconsistent at times. It was the media hype that got him this big wage and didn't allow him to develop into a star. And as for the bolded part, I really have no idea what point your trying to make.
Because you're talking about a club, the Clips, taking a slow approach to a young point that is buried in the bench anyways, beneath 2 all stars. He's only really playing due to injury. That's not analogous to Freddy and the US team, which is obviously not a club team. I agree with you about Benfica, they aren't in the business of spending millions on a talent that's supposedly the next big thing and then giving him years to grow. I agree that if Freddy stayed in MLS and didn't take a big deal to jump to a league that was beyond him he probably would be in a completely different situation. But that's Freddy's fault, isn't it? At least partially. So I can't have much sympathy for a guy that took a big paycheck and didn't develop the right way or cultivate the right attitude. Good for him getting the money, that's what most people would do. But now that he's taken that path there's no one to blame but him. If he got on another MLS team and was playing well, I'd love to see him in the US system. That's not where we are right now, and there's little reason to expect that to happen in the near future. As I said in the other thread, the evidence is stacked against him in this regard.
At least we somewhat agree on most things but I was mainly talking about Freddy on the Union or any other club team not the USMNT. Obviously if he's really inconsistent for the US team he probably shouldn't be getting any time. (although he has been consistent for the US team just not for any of his clubs.)
Oh okay, you were talking about the Union. I wasn't clear on that... I actually agree with you then! Sorry.
Yes, he's been inconsistent as a club player. And yes, if his name wasn't Freddy Adu, he might be thought of as a promising youngster and given more time and leeway to develop. There are other factors too, imho. I'm thinking of his ceiling, his wages, and his now long list of former clubs (which didn't factor in early, but may now). Re: his ceiling. By ceiling in this post, I don't mean what he could be if everything aligned perfectly for him, w/ him addressing any addressable shortcomings and finding his 'Everton' situation ala LD after failing 3 times in Germany. I'm simply referring to what he's looked like when he *was* having good games (remember, inconsistency implies good games too, just not enough of them). Imho, at Belem and Monaco he only had a single memorably good game (against Juventus). Even at Aris, where he did clearly show that he was starter material on one of the better teams in a decent league, I don't remember him ever really having any blinders. I know that some disagree w/ me here, but I remember dazzling *moments* from time to time, but no dominant games like we're used to seeing from him in youth/Olympics settings. At Rize he was the dominant player on the field. In Philadelphia he was during a couple games (NYRB/Toronto). At Benfica he had a penchant for scoring dramatic, last minute goals. My only point is that it wasn't always inconsistency, w/ great showings offset by all to frequent disappearing acts; for some sides he didn't have dominant games (or games at all), period. Re: wages/former clubs. Imho, clubs don't like to keep players around who make more money than they seem to be worth. Even if they play well, if teams can replace them w/ someone who offers roughly the same level of performance for much less money, they do it. Take away his name, and he still won't be given as much time to develop as many other youngsters because he's paid like a proven producer rather than like a prospect. And regarding his list of past employers, this probably simply adds fuel to the fire: people begin - rightly or wrongly - to think that it's evidence in and of itself that he would have latched on somewhere by now if he was worth giving time to develop. Bottom line: Yes, his name is clearly a factor. (It helps him too, imho; on net, who knows?) If any other 23 year old was coming off Freddy's GC and Olympic qualifying showings and had an up and down MLS season including both disappearing acts and blinders, we'd be going ga ga over him and would vehemently defend him from folks that bash him by pointing out that the inconsistency of youth is often replaced by mature steadiness...give him some time. Multiply our excitement over Gatt by about 10. But it's not just his name, imho. At some stops his top end performances haven't been there. And while it doesn't change his age, folks by now do hold his track record against him as if he were an older player. And, finally, he's paid like a proven performer rather than like a young, inconsistent prospect. This single factor, alone, is enough to explain 9 teams in 9 years, imho; cut his wages and several of these teams are interested in keeping him. Re: quick aside about Benfica. I don't think I'd label his play at Benfica inconsistent. I, personally, wasn't happy w/ his showings. (Yes, I was being ridiculously unfair, because I wanted him to play the same role he did for the U.S.; disconnects b/w logical interpretations of evidence and how we feel exist in all of us.) But it's hard to claim that a player scoring 5 goals in 8 games before being benched was benched for inconsistency. Yes, it was a short sample size and there's no way he could have kept it up - his strike rate at that point was better than anyone would finish w/ in all of Europe, for goodness sake. But you can't call it inconsistent either, nor can you credibly argue his play was poor. I was unhappy because I wanted him to be a fantasista rather than a joker. His managers were less happy w/ him than the players they played instead for other reasons...for whatever reason, the series of managers walking through the revolving door there simply didn't believe he was a long term prospect that fit their preferred style. But he wasn't benched for inconsistent play there. Remember, a leading theory among fans back then was that he was scoring too many goals, and about to trigger a contractual clause w/ Benfica giving MLS a lot of money. That's not inconsistency. (It doesn't take anything away from the main point y'all are making, though. His career so far as a whole has been inconsistent, and his name surely does affect the way folks evaluate him.)
Agreed. The most undervalued player in the US is the player who creates goal scoring opportunities. Start there.
I've never been huge on Adu, but I think we need someone with some kind of attack only prescience, Bradley/Jones are decent going forward but are better roaming the midfield and staying more defensive. If we're going to play a 4-3-3 I'd suggest a triangle 2-1 in the midfield (how Liverpool plays it they have Gerrard-Lucas side by side, both put in tackles, but Lucas doesn't move forward at all, while Gerard sprays balls all over the field and roams forward occasionally, the top of the triangle lately has been Henderson who is pretty good attacking wise, but his main attribute is pressing the ball). The problem if this is how JK wants to lineup our midfield is Adu probably won't pressure the defense when they have it deep in their own end. But we need some kind of spark to help our forwards (who are actually pretty decent) and Adu is about the only player in our pool who is a pure attack minded midfielder.
He actually will do this, and every now and then causes the other team to turn the ball over or intercepts a pass or loose dribble. Porter, for example, demands that his attackers press and, if they lose the ball, try to immediately win it back; and he seemed fine w/ Freddy's effort here, so maybe he's not as far off here as we think. Having said that, there's a difference b/w being willing to harass, close down lanes, try to win balls back and even get stuck in...and actually being consistently effective at it, e.g., 10 second mark and 2:25 mark below (to be fair, I *have* seen fast breaks started from passes he's intercepted too - more like 17 sec mark in third vid below - but the first two plays are what I seem to remember more of). Also, just because you're willing sometimes doesn't mean you do it enough, i.e., from whistle to whistle. (Not saying this is the case w/ Freddy. Just saying it's a possibility.)
Well, Adu needs a club and all that I've heard is that Toronto was sniffing around. Any other news on that front? Speculation? I don't see him leaving MLS, but I have no idea as to where he would go. The Quakes lost Simon Dawkins to Aston Villa, but I don't know if Frank wants the potential headache and the price tag that comes with it (even if Philly picks up a chunk). Chivas USA might fit well, but again, I don't know with the price. All in all, the guy needs to play before JK can think about bringing him into a camp or for a call up.
Actually I posted about this in another thread. His record with the nats has not been all that great. It's not been bad, but not as good as many people seem to believe. Here's the info I put together: These are the stats from all his matches with the USMNT senior squad. Seventeen matches over seven years. Here's a graph that shows the distribution of those matches since he's been in the player pool: As you can see, he's only played one full match, and has only contributed two goals and three assists. Others have pointed out that he has contributed in ways that don's show up in the stats, which is true. However, he has also hurt the team in ways that don't show up in stats. In addition the fact that he can't be counted on to play a full match really limits his effectiveness.
Word on the street is Adu had a chance to train with a few other MLS teams and Philly did not let him go. In other words, Philly is saying they will only play Adu if he takes a pay cut, but they don't want him to play on another team either...Ives tweeted about this a few days ago.
This is important and something that I wish our Nats coaches could get a better handle on. On the one hand there are the players who are invaluable to their club, start consistently and are very productive over long careers at a single club. Yet these players are never able to deliver in their spells for the national team. Twellman and Kreis were the poster boys for this group. On the other hand there are players that struggle from one club to another, are perhaps somewhat effective in spells, but end up on the bench or moving somewhere else only to work on breaking into a starting line up all over again. Yet these same players have standout impact on the national team (not always consistently but significantly and noticeably). I think Feilhaber and Adu fall into this group. Unfortunately national team play isn't frequent enough nor small stakes enough to justify continuously taking a chance on guys who struggle in their club careers but who play quite well frequently for the national team. Nevertheless I believe the US National team coaches need to be open minded enough to realize that we could have players that will simply never have standout club careers and in fact ride the pine for quite awhile but who still could play invaluable roles in that Nats jersey despite all of that. It might seem illogical but we have seen hints of this with Adu and Felilhaber already. I would also argue that Agudelo is still one of our most valuable attack assets in the Nats player pool no matter what his club situation is. For that matter I would even throw Gyau into that mix, but I need to see more of him in the Nats Jersey. For what its worth though he looked exceptionally dangerous for us in the Olympic qualifiers. As a side note my guess is that one of the reasons that Adu seems to shine in his brief spells with the Nats is that a) he brings qualities that are unique and that accentuate the rest of the team (control and creativity - Feilhaber does the same but in a different manner) and b) he is mentally just much more engaged on the national stage than for club, probably because he is motivated for attention and acclaim from the US audience in particular. Of course that's all arm chair psychology on my part but based on what I have seen of him and read from him my guess is that he needs that kind big stage love and when its not there he drops several gears mentally. **One other thing to consider about club status vs. national team production and how they can be totally disconnected, even if only in spells: Jozy Altidore- Two years of being quite effective with AZ and about the same length of dry spell with the Nats. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve his starting spot with the Nats by any means, but I think it demonstrates how the club status and form can be misleading.
The problem with Freddy is that he creates the for the other team. That's because, by and large, club coaches can get players to fit into their system, whereas on the national level, they have to do the opposite and, if a national team has a common shortcoming, it's magnified without the adjustments.
There's a few other plausible reasons, they might have a trade in the works and don't want him to get hurt. They could be screwing him over and release him right before the start of the season. There's almost no way I see him returning to Philly. They've noted they don't want him and he's not in their plans.
Agreed on that. I always wondered if given unlimited opportunities and time to formulate the team much more around them if Twellman or Kreis would have ever blossomed with the nats or what that might have been like had they had done so. Likewise I think what you point out makes it even more intriguing why certain players can have routine stand out games in the national team shirt despite their routine club struggles. It strikes me as the opposite dynamic to the Twellman/Kreis situation... ie player A: good form with club - doesn't mesh with the national team style of play at the moment - doesn't perform versus player B: perceived level of talent but inconsistent club form - brings a missing critical ingredient to the national team - performs well with the nats despite whatever happens in their club career.
As of right now, Klejstan, Feilhaber and Mix are doing enough to get playing time on the national team as the attacking midfielder. These are basically the top 3 central attacking midfielders in the pool right now, and JK decides to only play one of them (and out of position). We simply aren't going to be able to pass the ball around like JK wants if our midfield trio is MB90, Jones and Williams. Playing EJ basically as a midfielder doesn't help either. Hopefully Shea is a success at Stoke so we never have to see EJ at left mid again. The reference to Liverpool's formation that someone else made makes sense to me. Jones and Bradley as the back 2 and either Klejstan, Feilhaber or Mix as the attacking option. Dempsey can even play there as well.
Let's hope that in the upcoming home qualifier that Klinsmann is a little more adventurous in midfield. We have plenty of options to use there. I don't think it'll be Feilhaber or Mix, though. Both were at camp cupcake, and neither started the game against Canada. Mix didn't play at all and Feilhaber was only brought on as a sub. I get the sense that Klinsmann really likes Corona. When people talk about the things they'd like Freddy Adu to do for the national team, I think Klinsmann prefers Corona. Why? I don't know.
Philly had one of the better defensive records in MLS until the last month or so when Adu was mostly on the bench. Makes more sense in a league of a higher level than MLS. In MLS there is the basic suitability for international competition to consider.
You can call them what you want. I'd rather have them linking up with Dempsey and Altidore than Jones. Jones is a CDM to me. Do you not think Mix and Feilhaber are better at creating chances than Jones?
To you maybe, but not to the coaching staff at Schalke. Maybe, but they're don't regularly play as CAMs, so I'm not sure I trust them there on the national team. Meanwhile, Jones plays as a #8 on a CL team and Bradley plays for Roma. They've locked down the #8 position for this national team.
Mix and Feilhaber would make excellent impact subs. Hell, Feilhaber was the impact sub for much of the last cycle. Kljestan is a backup player. Creativity with the starting 11 could be improved by moving Dempsey into moving midfield and have him play in the manner as at Fulham; two strikers could then be used or Jones could be given a run out in the hole.