We need to display the rivalry between Atlanta & Florida.

*I posted this thread in the Florida forum. instead of taking the time to rewrite it so that it fits more for the Atlanta audience, you can try to understand where i'm coming from: we need Atlanta and Florida to work together to build a rivalry*

Don Garber and MLS loves rivalries. if anything, i believe this is a major reason for what is keeping the southeastern region of the United States out of MLS because of this myth that some believe that we do not have any natural rivalries. For example, why do you think MLS wanted to tap into all of the PNW? and why do you think they wanted a 2nd team in LA and now a 2nd team in NY? because they believe rivalries to be good for the league.

We all know that the more traditional southern states: GA, SC, NC, TN, AL, and MS (you could add northern FL, southern VA, LA, AR, and parts of TX, MO, OK, and KY as well) and Florida have a natural rivalry for one another. it's in our blood and we need to make sure that we stir the pot for MLS to take notice.

And i know, we all want a team in OUR city but we know MLS is not going to expand to 50 different markets that could support MLS. Also, despite the fact there will be some who won't support a team outside their city...many fans from the more culturally southern states will support a team within that region so long as they are considered the south's team, and i believe that many Florida fans would support a team within their state so long as they are considered Florida's team. With that, it should be noted, i'd be damned before i ever supported a team in Florida (i would possibly accept Jacksonville) and i wouldn't expect any Florida fan to support a team from one of the other states in the southeast.

In short, Florida fans and Atlanta fans (as well as all southern fans) need to work together to help display this rivalry. I know that the NASL is not a good indicator of success in MLS but we need to show this passion in our upcoming games. Also, we should be coming up with ideas for the name of a regional cup between us? Anyways, what ideas do y'all have to help us both in expansion?

Miami is just to far for a rivalry like that in the PNW. Atlanta is closer to Washington and Columbus then Miami. If we want to build a regional rivalry then we should look to build up the Charlotte market. That would give the Atlanta and Charlotte teams both a rather "local" rival and DC could be in the larger regional rival as well. I could be wrong, just my point of view.

This. Two great cities an easy 4-hour drive apart, and some of us already make the trip for Falcons vs. Panthers. Heaven forbid the football and soccer rivals play on the same weekend...

Miami might be too far, but Tampa and Orlando are doable.

Just my .02 on it.. Along with some other things, I think MLS is trying too hard. Actual rivalries come in time and happen on their own, IMO. MLS announcers using the word 'derby' is laughable. These rivalry games are hours away (excluding the one in LA, I know).

If there was going to be a rivalry in the South, I think a triangle of Charlotte (as much as I hate to say it), Charleston (or Columbia), and Atlanta. With that triangle, the team's city is only between 3 to 5 hours away from all three teams. IMHO, MLS needs to take a serious look at Charlotte, Raleigh, Charleston, Columbia, and Atlanta before they look into a second NY team or Florida. 3 or 4 of those 5 could be a very solid foundation for the MLS' future expansion in the South.

I think in America, it's a good idea to try to jumpstart any rivalries, at least outside of the New York/New England area. Otherwise they just won't develop quality-wise. Look at the rest of the major sports teams in Atlanta. None of them really have that strong a rivalry with anybody. I think it's great to try to "force" a rivalry, which even though may be contrived, should be exceedingly fun.

Falcons vs. sAints, anyone?

(Really, this is a pretty serious oversight...)

And the Braves and Dodgers, believe it or not, were huge rivals when they were in the same division (along with the Reds). I guess now, it's Braves-Phillies (or Philthies ).

Eh, I'm a bit hesitant to call that a full-fledged rivalry. Maybe that's because I wasn't really immersed in football culture that much growing up...ha.

Obviously, Atlanta is my first choice, but you have to look at where Don wants to expand...i really think he wants Florida back in the mix. According to this article, http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/os-orlando-city-soccer-plans-20110330,0,3833356.story the options for the southeast are Atlanta, Orlando, and Miami right now. Well, Miami is way too far for us to have a natural rivalry with them, but Orlando is doable. I honestly believe it is in our best interest to try and stir the pot with Orlando fans to let MLS know that there are natural rivalries in the southeast.

In the long term, i hope to see teams in Atlanta, Nashville, Carolina, and in Florida....perhaps one day in New Orleans and Birmingham.

Apparently not, because everyone one else on Earth thinks it's kind of a big deal

Okay, I'm a Revolution fan, that has recently moved to the Atlanta area (technically Alabama, but that is just too embarrassing for a Boston boy to say). Being as I haven't ever really carefully followed NASL or USL, are there any actual rivalries with Atlanta?

I think the idea is relatively brilliant. Typically, a good way to do it is to create a cup (though I'm sure most of you already knew that). THe closest NASL team is Carolina (right?) though I know Orlando has a team in a lower division (I think they are D3). If there was a way to create a fan driven cup with derby games this would definitely be a great way to get the attention of the league.

Sorry if this was rambling, but I think this is a very, very good idea.

There was a cup in the USL days, stared in 2000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Derby

The railhawks gave the cup away to the battery to contest against some other teams in their area in the lower leagues.


There has been some talk of putting together another cup.

Maybe the Dixie Cup between Carolina and Atlanta until Nashville gets a team? (if Nashville gets a team). I'm a northerner so I don't know if "Dixie" is an appropriate name, or just really offensive.

it shouldn't be if it is.

Dixie is offensive. Its word has history with the civil war and it is emotionally tied to the racial flag that Georgia used to fly many years ago.

whatever. dixie was used a long time before the war for southern independence and a long time after. it is most commonly referred to as a nickname of the south and many people of color understand this and are not offended by it. Only a few misinformed people have emotionally tied it to this so called "racial flag" of Georgia. Moreover, Carolina, Georgia, Tennessee, Alabama, and Mississippi will always be a part of "dixie" due to our enduring cultural similiarities (black and white), and there should be nothing offensive about our states. personally, i'm proud to live in dixie, and it offends me when people stereotype me and label me as a racist for so.

Sorry for opening that bag of worms. Different people view the same things different ways. Either way it was an idea of an imaginary cup, maybe someone has a better name that would not cause us to delve into a Civil War discussion.

Source?

Do you really think there has been a study that says, 'hey black people, does the term "Dixie" offend you?' you could just take my word for it since i have lived here most of my life and have known ample amount of people who are black that are not offended by the term Dixie to refer to the south, but if you absolutely demand some form of internet source to make you feel better:

***warning: i love to study this time period, and love to debate this topic.***

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8hPo6mYnks"]YouTube - Black Confederate[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF-QIJyLhKQ&feature=related"]YouTube - Behind The Dixie Stars[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWuy2fq0PvM&feature=related"]YouTube - Clip 1 from 'Black Confederates: The Forgotten Men in Gray'[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWuy2fq0PvM&feature=related"]YouTube - Clip 1 from 'Black Confederates: The Forgotten Men in Gray'[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVYLswFcI48&feature=related"]YouTube - Clip 2 from 'Black Confederates: The Forgotten Men in Gray'[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL-7NRL3BT0&feature=related"]YouTube - Clip 3 from 'Black Confederates: The Forgotten Men in Gray'[/ame]

http://dixieoutfitters.com/p/fighting-blacks?ol=no&pi=2673&ri=2669

Mason-Dixon line? according to history channel about how the states got their shapes, 100 years before the war, The Penns wanted Philadelphia and the Mason-Dixon line "was not about slavery."

Also, how many black people do you know that won't shop at a Winn Dixie because of the word "Dixie" in it????

how many black people do you know that hate Dixieland music (Jazz) in New Orleans?


But if you want the truth how "the great emancipator" felt about blacks:

http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres31.html

"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so."

or look at how Lincoln supported the Corwin Amendment which would have allowed the south to have slaves if they were to stay in the union (Funny how that always gets left out).

http://timelines.com/1861/2/28/ohio-representative-proposes-corwin-amendment

http://www.lib.niu.edu/2006/ih060934.html


read Lincoln's letter to Horace Greeley in the New York Tribune:

"I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views."

And read what Lincoln felt about racial equality

"For the sake of your race, you should sacrifice something of your present comfort for the purpose of being as grand in that respect as the white people,"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_lincoln_colonization

So, why did Lincoln free the slaves? to prevent Britain and France from entering the war. Britain was very much against slavery and agreed to not come into the war if Lincoln would free the slaves (PBS documentary about the Civil War).

And i highly recommend you read this:
http://www.ashevilletribune.com/archives/censored-truths/Morrill Tariff.html

http://www.virginiawestern.edu/faculty/vwhansd/his121/Census1860T4.html



While northern fanatics love to beat up the old Missouri Compromise and the Dred Scott Case as the sole cause of the civil war...the fact is that suggestion is flawed. I won't say that slavery did not have anything to do with it nor played a major component...especially for the rich on both sides. But the fact is you can tell a lot about enlistment posters, the songs that were sung by the foot soldiers, and the memoirs and diaries of the common soldier on both sides. While most if not all were aware of the issue of slavery, the fact is their "cause" was to defend their country...i highly recommend you read "co aytch" a memoir by Sam Watkins, a confederate infantryman, and his feelings about the war....And i will also note: it's not all neo-confederate ra! ra! ra! it's a damn good book that i believe anyone in the world could enjoy and will also give you a lot of good insight of how the people in that era thought.

....And i must also point that in the 19th century, most Americans...especially, in the south...considered their state, their country (you have to think, a lot of people never even left their county in their life before the war). Also, to quote perhaps one of the most notorious and respected civil war historians, Shelby Foote, what the civil war did was that it made the United States an "is" instead of an "are." Further, he states that when a lot of these states came into the union, they felt they were able to leave when they wanted. Think: where in the Constitution does it say that states are subservant to the federal government? because i sure can point to the 10th amendment and the Declaration of Independence that "to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." But the truth is the south was not trying to even change the politics in the north. they just wanted to be free. that is why i have a problem with the term "civil war" when the truest statement that it was a war for southern independence.





Anyways, enough of my rant. And this is just some links to show that some blacks go as far to support the Confederacy, that the the north were not the great liberators that they love to make themselves out to be now, and some true history about that time...not just if black people are offended by the term "Dixie" which is absurd to ask because you know there has never been a study about that word. if anything, i'd argue it proves my point because there has not been an uprise saying that the word "Dixie" cannot be used to refer to the south.

Also, most of this "hate" is actually a propoganda tool because most half-educated individuals who love the south hate racism more than anyone. And most people that i know that would be offended by "Dixie" would be offended by the word "south" and anything i identify myself as even though i have not done any harm to them, as well. Either way, i want to emphasize that the term "Dixie" is more of just a nickname for the south still today and that there are many blacks that are not offended by the term "Dixie" to refer to the south even if they hold the upmost hatred towards slavery. The friends i know see "Dixie" as a part of their heritage and embrace it and are proud of where we are today. Further, i encourage everyone from the south to stand up when they hear people that label us as racist because the majority of us, are not!!! And encourage people to see where we are today as BROTHERS. sadly, the loudest and most obnoxious people are the ones the media focuses in on. in short, the south is very culturally distinct from the rest of the United States (and not for racism) and that is why so many people do embrace the term "dixie".

I've lived here my whole life, and every black person I know or have ever met from anywhere (yes, seriously) is offended by that term, or at least knows it's very offensive because of the connotation it has had for decades. I wasn't asking for an Internet source to make me feel better; it was a tongue-in-cheek way of saying you can't prove what you claimed. But, what the hell: from my own non-scientific research (i.e. showing 20 black people your comment):

Dixie = Confederacy = Slavery = Jim Crow

Additional sources: I'm black, and more than 5 generations of my family lived in the "Old" South, where mentioning Dixie was just a reminder of the good "old" days

Not trying to call you out personally, just really amused by your comment.

Really amused.

I'm white and I have to agree with you. Race doesn't mean anything to me but when it comes to the Civil War, it makes me wish I was never born in the South. There really are people here in the South that think the Civil War was not, primarily, fought over for Slavery. It essentially was THE primary issue. So with that said, Dixie has a connotation that means it came from the South and usually from Civil War history.

Also, it is no wonder that whenever you see a redneck shop out in hodunk county, they have a store named "Dixie something" or whatever. It most likely, its full of white folks or people who like the name Dixie.

Honestly dude, why can't you choose another name besides Dixie? It's god awful bad brah.

This is the 21st century. I would rather go the Euro route in naming a club, supporters group, or MLS franchise than naming it after a stupid bird that nobody gives a shit about.

well, i cannot tell you how you personally feel about it, but i will inform you that i have several black friends that are educated on the south (meaning they have done their own research and not just learned what the public education and media has force fed them) that are not offended by the word "Dixie." However, i am sorry that you have been misinformed about "dixie" and other symbols of the south and let a few knuckleheads make you believe that white southerners are all racists because dixie is not about slavery. Further, i am not trying to get you to come to the conlusion tha slavery was ok because it's not, but i believe it is sad if you are not willing to actually listen to an alternative viewpoint on the subject. And if it is a symbol of anything, it's about resistance against centralization of the government and the belief that every state is a separate & sovereign government (which is how it was laid out when this country was founded). That was the original meaning.

And, i know you said it to try and set me up...that's why i said the question is absurd, but i felt compelled to actually share some truth with you to hopefully open your eyes. Did you even bother to read any of the information i gave you? Anyways, Think: a lot of people have used the cross as a symbol of hate, as well...but that does not mean that everyone who is a Christian is full of hate.

Either way, i am getting off topic. Dixie is just a nickname for the southern United States. And i am sorry that you have been misinformed to what it means by the people who actually embrace that term (white and black). But i will conclude that i do not necessarily insist on there being the name Dixie associated with the team. All i want is for people to actually listen to the side who do embrace that term instead of making up their own beliefs on why people use that term and not spew their hatred towards it.

Rivalry Cup = Good idea.
Using a term that has even a whiff of controversy for that Cup = Bad idea.

All I can say is that in the locations I have lived in Georgia, there is a high degree of correlation between someone's "Confederate Pride" and racism



As for

That's so absurd as to be hilarious; states' rights were perfectly alright to be trampled upon according to the southern states if it was on the topic of returning fugitive slaves.