Watching Jozy score and thinking about whether Klinsman is junk

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by yabo, Feb 17, 2013.

  1. yabo

    yabo Member

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    Why does Jozy look so good in the Dutch league, albeit not know for its rugged defenses? He's making smart quick turns, running into space. I'm beginning to think that this Big Dog psych Klinsman's pulling is backfiring.


  2. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

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    Adam Maher.

    Any Jozy highlight video is essentially an Adam Maher highlight video. Jozy gets great service from him and his AZ colleagues. When Jozy makes a great run or gets himself into a great position at AZ................somebody can feed him the ball.
  3. yankeeRoyal

    yankeeRoyal Member+

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    A good analysis in my opinion. Jozy (like many others) thrives with good service and can do little without service. He is a finisher, and is not going to create and finish his own goal often.
  4. man_in_the_middle

    man_in_the_middle Member

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    He's still good enough to keep around imo


  5. IndividualEleven

    IndividualEleven Member+

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    If one considers his entire body of work, imo it's not a Klinsmann issue. Altidore scored a goal every other 90 min in MLS where he was monster. In La Liga he didn't get the job done despite good service. In the EPL he had horrible service but on a per 90 min basis was productive on a per 90 min basis in terms of drawing fouls, pks, and making assists.

    With the National Team he's had good service throughout his career. He's variously had Donovan, Bradley, Feilhaber, Ching, Davies, and Dempsey to play with. Herc and Dempsey are scoring from the forward position this term. He has strong supporting players from midfield and fullback in the
    persons of FJohnson, Jones, Bradley, and Diskerud.

    In 2008 Jozy had 2 goals and 2 assists for the National Team in less than 4 games worth of minutes including a goal against Mexico. In '09 the tally was 6 goals in 12 games worth of minutes highlighted by goals against Spain and Mexico and a drawn pk against Italy.

    The decline really starts pre-Klinsmann. In '10 he had 2 goals and 1 assist in over 8 games worth of minutes with tallies against Poland and Turkey. In '11 he had 3 goals in over 9 games worth--with opposition being Canada, Guadeloupe, and Slovenia(on a pk he didn't draw).

    I would argue that Altidore's game is playing with the ball at his feet and playing with a competent strike partner. He was at his best when he could partner with Ching, Charlie Davies, Dempsey, or Donovan. His movement and fitness have improved tremendously in Holland, but the body of work doesn't suggest he's going to be scoring as a lone forward or as center forward(in 433) at a high level of competition.
  6. IndividualEleven

    IndividualEleven Member+

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    Altidore has scored plenty of golazos in the Eredivisie. His scoring isn't an Adam Mahar thing anymore than Bradley scoring 16 goals in the Eredivisie was down to the particular greatness of the Heerenveen squad.
  7. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

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    There would be the question of which cf makes it easiest for Dempsey to score with. Some mite think that we should add Herc instead of Jozy to add goals but cud it be that Dempsey would not score as often playing with Herc as he does with Jozy? Dunno.

    Right now I'd say start Jozy, sub Herc, but like this in a 4231

    ------------jozy-------
    --ej-------dempsey---dono--

    To this

    ----------dempsey------
    --ej------herc-------dono--
    --(shea)--------------(gatt?)
    sugit repped this.
  8. IndividualEleven

    IndividualEleven Member+

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    Just to expand on a point from my first post, Jozy's performances weren't helped by the decline of Ching and then Davies' car crash. Dempsey and Donovan were ensconced in midfield during most of the latter half of the previous regime. Under Klinsmann Donovan has been mostly unavailable and Dempsey has been playing a withdrawn forward role or as in the Honduras match a nominal winger.

    In a more Jozy centric scheme, he'd be paired a with a speed forward or a center forward---either of which could clear some space for him to operate under. Pity about Davies. He and Jozy could have been spending the intervening years developing one hell of an understanding.
  9. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

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    JK has decided to play Clint either underneath or as a support striker. Despite our lack of wing play, Dempsey has rarely been utilized outside under JK. This means there is only one striker spot open.

    Jozy is not a good #9 IMHO. If you are playing tika-taka and possessing the ball a lot, and he can get the ball played into his feet, he can be dangerous. But the player on the USA roster who is best at that is Donovan, who isn't playing. And Feilhaber, who JK doesn't fancy.

    If Jozy has to win aerial battles (not his strength) or do nifty one-tough stuff to spring someone else, nothing much is going to happen offensively. Especially when you have a DM/CM type at RM and another inexperienced player at LM (Shea, etc).
    Excellency repped this.
  10. Jazzy Altidore

    Jazzy Altidore Member

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    Its not that complicated. Jozy needs teammates to combine with. Look at his history- @ Hull, he didn't score. The team as a whole offered nothing going forward and typically left him isolated up top to take a beating while they held on for dear life.

    At AZ, he actually has teammates willing to feed him the ball, to combine with him, to make runs off him. And he is flourishing.

    With the USA under Klinssman, he's not quite isolated like he was with Hull, but he rarely gets the ball in dangerous spots. He hasn't scored, and its not like he's completely blowing chances, and from what I've seen he does work hard to get the ball when possible.

    I think looking at his partnership (or lack thereof) with Clint deserves analysis. Clint is a go it alone, me against the world attacker. He's usually not very interested in combination play, and I've never seen him attempt to combine with Jozy. I love Clint, and obviously he is currently our best player, but I think that its clear that Jozy and Clint are not the best partnership. I think they could be very effective together, if Juergann would only instruct Clint to combine more with Jozy.
  11. Jazzy Altidore

    Jazzy Altidore Member

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    Jozy played in a total of 9 games with a loan to Hull in the middle of his tenure. He never really got a chance to play in Spain.
    To be fair, he never forced himself into the lineup at Xeres. He was a lot younger then, however. I think there's a big difference between 2o years and 23 years old.
  12. IndividualEleven

    IndividualEleven Member+

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    Villareal paid $10 million for Jozy and game him opportunities. Tactically he was just too far behind.

    Dempsey had 6 assists with Fulham last season and he's got 3 with Tottenham this term. Jozy's problems aren't on Dempsey's lack of willingness to 'share the ball'.
  13. ImaPuppy

    ImaPuppy Member+

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    Couldn't be more wrong. Have you watched him with AZ at all since Elm left? There are many times he turns nothing into something. Elm (who is thriving with CSKA) leaving was a big blow for AZ's creativity and service into Jozy, and he's still putting up big numbers on a relatively poor attacking team. Its very much up to him to do his thing and create with quick 1-2's and being able to take defenders on physically.
  14. yabo

    yabo Member

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    I don't think it's that easy. Service is an issue. And Maher feeds balls centrally more so than the wings. Our CM may not be sublime passers, but all of them can pull a finishing touch. I agree with the lone striker issue. I don't think Jurgen really understands the game nor his personnel. At first, I didn't believe the pundits stating that Low was the one driving the beautiful soccer in the German NT, given Jurgen's flare for the game. I'm losing faith in him now. We play ugly and slow. All our players can't be shit. He doesn't choose flair players in the midfield. That tells me he thinks of US players as worker bees. I remember what Arena coming in and essentially trusting our players to be creative and play with technical skill. We haven't had that sense he left.
  15. EveryTouchFootball

    EveryTouchFootball New Member

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    Jozy actually looked pretty bad before he scored that goal yesterday.
  16. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

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    Jozy is a player who needs service, like most strikers. He just needs time to get used to 'reading' the guys providing from midfield. He has that time with his club, not with the NT. Some strikers need less time, some need more.

    In a NT setting, since the players spend very little time together (by comparison) than in a club, the reading has to be done back to front. That is, since the players at the front don't know the players behind them that well, it is the duty of the player behind to measure the pass.

    If they are not so good at doing it, or lack the smarts to adapt and keep playing as if they were in their club, then the player on the receiving end suffers. And he must be indeed quite astute to compensate.
    LouisianaViking07/09 repped this.
  17. yankeeRoyal

    yankeeRoyal Member+

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    No, I haven't seen any AZ games (pre or post Elm). My opinion was based on USMNT games and AZ highlights and reading. Hope you're right.....got any highlights of Jozy creating and finishing? I'd love to see what I've been missing. Thanks.
  18. LuckofLichaj

    LuckofLichaj Member

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    I see Jozy as a much, much worse but less selfish version of Nicolas Anelka. Not a typical support striker but not really a hold-up forward either. He likes to cut/drift in from the left touchline and is at his best when running onto the ball in space.

    In other words, as incongruous as Dempsey's tactical puzzle piece may be, Jozy is actually more jagged.
  19. Foolishness

    Foolishness Member

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    I've watched probably a total of 20-30 games the last two years for him at AZ and probably every highlight possible.

    Jozy plays a bit of a different role for AZ and almost never scores when he's alone up top. His first 7 or so goals this year were pure Jozy creating goals for Jozy. He was either setting up his own 1-2 or making absurdly crazy runs. He drifts to the other side of the midfield line and AZ hardly play the counter through him. Although he's scored one brilliant counter this year. He's scored a bit more goals this year in the box when there's 2 or 3 other people in there with him. Maher definitely helps a bit in terms of taking some pressure/attention/target but he's no where near more responsible for Jozy's goals than Jozy.

    This year has been really interesting for Jozy, he's been scoring from his left foot, right foot, head, from distance, inside the box, 1-2 touch plays, creating angles and opening the hips on a counter. He's been doing it all.

    It's not the crappy defense that's getting him this total, it's his continuing growth as a player in finding the space and separation and his endless supply of strengths.
    MLSNHTOWN repped this.
  20. Foolishness

    Foolishness Member

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    Here's Jozy's best goal of the year.


    Placement


    setting himself up.


    A lot of the videos are down but there's some others that come to mind and can't remember who it was against.
  21. jclampit

    jclampit Member

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    Looked just like Robbie Keane w/ his post celebration roll there (first clip). ;)

    I've been seriously impressed w/ his goals. I keep thinking to myself, though, is he really this good? Is what he just did there something he can replicate? I keep feeling like the answer is 'no', but apparently, at least for AZ, it's 'yes'.
  22. Foolishness

    Foolishness Member

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    It's something he could replicate for the states but I doubt he will. It requires a bit of possession, Jurgen's call out back in October was right on the money. He gets way more looks per game for club than country. However, I'm sure we could adjust that if we didn't play with 3 CMs but what do I know.
  23. IndividualEleven

    IndividualEleven Member+

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    Altidore got about 180 minutes against Russia and Honduras. Russia has one of the better defensive records in Europe. Honduras has been on a roll since the Olympics, and getting anything down there was always going to be tough. US had 49 and 42 percent possession respectively in the matches, not exactly Pep's Barca but plenty to work with. Two of the players who scored in those matches for the US--Bradley and Dempsey--are players who have been scoring in adverse conditions for the US all along. The other, Diskerud, certainly merits more time.

    What the US can't replicate are Eredivisie style defenses and open-play in the opposition. He has grown as a player, but he also began scoring immediately--in fact on opening day--since entering the league.

    To get the most out of the player, he needs to be paired with another striker. This needs to tried at some point.
    aw072760 repped this.
  24. leppercut

    leppercut Member

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    I don't know about this claim. It would be interesting to see stats for how many dangerous passes, or passes in the final third he has received vs how many he has put away.
  25. IndividualEleven

    IndividualEleven Member+

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    Other players are scoring for the team. Has he been getting singled out to not receive dangerous passes? Hell, he scores golazos in the Eredivisie without receiving dangerous passes. Is there some sort of conspiracy amongst Clint, Mike, Jermain, Landon, Fabian, et al to keep Jozy down?

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