sorry I'm inspired by progress and change--and if throwing money at something makes it a little more competitive and changes the balance I'm all for it- -if success happens well that's a bonus Neanderthals will always inhabit the earth especially in sports where the refereeing and judging is still at the neanderthal level--change is scary--very scary--we can't have change--we prefer to lose than to change--this is what you are professing it has nothing to do with reading self help books--wherever that came from? suffering and overcoming is a cute concept for the masses and Karl Marx would be proud--what did he say?--religion is the opium of the masses-you must be onto something there---but i digress People want to progress --it's as simple as that--throw a little money at it and it moves along--probaly not forever but definitely for a while Vitesse will now improve and make a better league because they will be a better team again take no umbrage in what I say here as i take none in yours--we just see the world differently
That international television fans believe this Vitesse take-over is a good thing is understandable but to even have DUTCH people liking this to me is beyond the beyonds. I'm just going to assume they're not match-going fans. I'm thinking 90% of BigSoccer doesn't have a clue about what makes European season ticket holders tick.
You don't understand what makes many fans enjoy their football. Football, as in the actual game, is only one part of it and for many not anywhere near the most important part. Many fans consider their club a family member. They feel unconditional love for their club. They are born into into it and grow up with it. And just like with family members, they feel closer to their club after going through sheer and utter misery with it. I'm not talking about oh what misery we haven't won the league this season. I'm talking about the fear of bankruptcy and going out of business, relegation, fellow fans dying, players dying, friends getting married in the stadium, your dad giving your first born a club membership. THOSE are the things that create a lifelong bond with your club. Not the successes. If you can survive the deepest lows with your fellow fans, that creates a bond that the likes of Barcelona and Manchester United can only dream of. And that is the soul of football. That is what makes this sport the most successful sport in the world. Not money. What percentage of professional football clubs is successful anyway? If you think this sport is built on money-based progress what are your thoughts about the hundreds of millions of people who pay to watch their club play every weekend in the knowledge that their club will never win anything? You know what Twente fans talked about at the end of last season when we were on the verge of winning the league? Not about the champions league. Not about the millions coming our way. But about the people who died and who we wished could have been there to see it. .The people who stood begging for suirvival at the town hall less than ten years ago yet who weren't around to see it.
You are assuming a lot my dear Canadian motivational speaker. I don't know if you actually read the previous posts, but I am actually in favour of this takeover. I like these kind of stories, but I also know why other people don't like them. And that is what's different about you and me -- You are way over your head in your own story. You like change do you? Well, change your tune to the realities of European football. You are scribbling on a forum about a sport that was, is and will be build on what you consider neanderthal sentiments. To achieve success in footy is to achieve the kind of succes that is in harmony with these sentiments. That's the only way to achieve true success....to be remembered. I feel like Al Pacino talking to Jamie Foxx in "Any given Sunday". You don't know about success until you experience the suffering. But hey, Al Pacino is a Marxist right?
how can one be against it when one is not a vitesse supporter, they were facing bankruptcy and got saved. why would anyone feel entitled to tell arnhemmers to be against being saved from bankruptcy? *smh* even if it's proved to be a temporarily solution, when indeed their new owner is a charlatan, who's to say they shouldn't be happy about having a few more years in the eredivisie? their season ticket sales are going through the roof right now and i love that they have something to look out for instead of all the doom and gloom of last season.
Classic, he's gone offline... Probaby off reading something like "10 ways to achieve success and debunk the entire football community whilst doing it." Gekke jongen...
I'm not saying it's good or bad in one way or another - I'm just saying that money unfortunately talks when it comes to attaining results in the sport. By the way, what's with the euro- and holland-chauvinism? Because somebody brings up a point that's different means that they have no clue about Dutch people? About European fans? About Europeans? You don't need to go that far Pim...
I just find this whole thing entertaining, regardless of how it will turn out for Vitesse. One good thing about all this is that the Eredivisie might break the 20.000 average attendance barrier this year, although the addition of Excelsior hurts.
I'll not quote anyone, mostly to restrict this post to an acceptable length. I agree with Johan to a large extend as to what constitutes and cultivates true club loyalty. And it's certainly not just succes. It´s the fact that clubs are not corporations providing a service to a consumer community, it´s that they are in integral part of (a substantial part of) that comunity. And made of the same community stuffs. This is what most professional football clubs are (at least in The Netherlands) I agree. Success is more or less a bonus. That makes things so much more bare-able at times. This of course is very different form the North American incorporated model. And while moving to an other country may change a Dutch match-going fans weekend behaviour, their passion will never change. But I digress... My point is, having success as a club does not exclude all the fine examples of non-success or even non-footbal related 'club-bonding rites'. It does not interfere, or, it should not. Money likewise. Money can be used the 'right way', in this case to strengthen such club-community ties and bolster youth-development and proximity scouting (ie not chasing under-aged Brazilians, Ghaneans and so on), and it can be used the wrong way, to buy second-rate East European unproven 21-year olds to prep them for Chelski (or ManCity, ManU, or that Spanish monstrousity for that matter) to line the pocket of a semi-shady football broker "with a plan". So lets wait and see what will happen. The three year ambition expressed by the new Cleptocrat General doesn't bode well. (what ever happened to the Soviet 5-year plan dogma? )
No, not you, the bloke from Canada. You do however visit Chelsea, which of course makes you very suspect.. Hadn´t realised it was that bad in the Stamford Bridge stands. What would Ken Monkou think? ... Oh no, he´s gone over to the Dark side as well! Yeah, Commodore shirt, making John Major proud, great stuff
Hey this gekke oude man has to still make a living--I jump on every few hours from work--home now Johan had a very passionate speech there and I can see that--the tradition is something that is held dear to her--but the dying people stuff and the bankruptcy stuff---why look back--does it make it a better moment--just party hardy and they are probably watching anyways?? you are going to love this little philosophy--and again--IMO--take no offense on this "Life is difficult"--those are the first words of The Road Less Traveled--great book--speaking of motivational books building happiness in your life is based on the the frame work you mentiioned--harmony and and true success to be remembered and cherished building success in business is similar but also requires $$$--something too few Eredivisie teams have with more money the teams are more competitiive --gain more UEFA points--have more teams in competitions and bring more credit to the Eredivisie--more cash to keep our boys playing at home a little longer --this is good right??? Next calling fans phoney or fake fans because they suddenly come out is an elitist type thinking that unfortunately belies a provincial type mentality--truly small time--we know we are better than these newbies every fan is created equal as long as they come out--they all go to the game--pay their way to have fun--some may feel they have a deeper bond and let them feel this and even act this way but as far as the team goes the more the merrier--they want the newbies even if you scorn them there are always going to be bandwagon jumpers--so what-- Vitesse will now fill their stadium for the next few years and probably be a feeder for Chelsea--right now PSV-Ajax-Feyenoord-AZ-Twente are all feeders--why is this now not right for Vitesse--let them join the party for a while? Finally AZ went bankrupt last year--no one committed suicide- -I was very much hoping that they would somehw get a big sponsor like GazProm--so they could continue their prosperous ways--did not hapen but in Holland with the tiny population and TV, that's just about the only way to get past the big 3-4
You seem to think that caring about your club on an emotional level is the stuff for treehugging hippies or something. What I'm trying to make clear to you is that if people wouldn't care for their club on the emotional level, professional football would be dead. It's the fans who feel emotional ties to their club that keep football afloat, not the gloryhunters, not the big clubs, and not the sugardaddies. Let me put this ina business-like manner as that's what you seem fond of: without the MONEY these emotional fans bring into the game, professional football would be dead. The clubs that you read about, the Chelseas of this world, and the ManCity's, and maybe now the Vitesses only represent a tiny fragment of professional football. Without that elite, professional football would be just fine. The elite in turn could not survive without the rest though. You get that don't you? A club NEEDS emotional fans for survival and indeed for consistent success. The only reason for AZ going up and down like it has over the past three decades is because similar to Vitesse it doesn't have a solid fanbase. When the Molenaar brothers left AZ in the 80s the club imploded and had attendances of 4,000. AZ is at a very big risk of this happening again if it doesn't manage to stay in the top five of the Dutch league for the next couple of years. Simply because it does not have fans who support the club no matter what. And AZ need people coming through the gates to stay afloat financially. We're talking about the Dutch league here, not about La Liga or the Premiership. Without the chance of ever attracting big television revenues and as a result of ever generating big CL revenues, a Dutch club NEEDS its match-going fans. Bottom line: bilionaire investors come and go. Fans stay - IF, that is, they have an emotional bond with their club, as that ensures they stay regardless of how their club performs. Why do you think many clubs pay so much attention to cementing their place in their community. Do you think that's because they're leftie touchy feely types? Let me assure you, it's not. It's their insurance policy.
Actually, the first sentence of the original "The Road Less Traveled" poem by Robert Frost (as in: "I took the [road] less traveled by") runs like this: "Two roads diverged in a yellow wood" Now, isn't that fitting? Two roads in a Gelderland forest, tradition and progress, their respective travelers constantly declaiming each other. It's like Fausto Coppi and Gino Bartali (both ancient Italian cyclists). Coppi rode for progress and Bartali for the Church. But whose side is one to take? I am not about to take side in this Vitesse matter. I hope it works out and indeed I hope they find a big sponsor, become champions and the next club to enliven the league. But I surely hope that this 1892 club does not get destroyed - heart and soul - in the wake of it all. Like this, for example: (a riddle for those of interest)
Cool, great literary allusions!! The picture (and I don't know if it shows up in the quote here as I cannot see it as I compose the reply) is from Faust. Faust is looking at Marguerite with our good friend Mephistopholes right behind him. I guess the pact with the devil is what the fans of Vitesse need to be considering right now. Things didn't turn out all that well for Faust. I agree with Johan's point about fans. What would the matches be like without them? I remember watching a Serie A match a couple of years back on TV. It may have been one of the Sicilian teams; they had received a two match penalty from the league to play behind closed doors (I think because of racial abuse of a visiting player). It was the oddest experience. The TV cameras did their best not to show the empty seats but what was even more eerie was the absolute quiet. One thing you have to be grateful to the English League is that the fans are totally engaged. To watch a Liverpool match and hear them lift their voices in "You'll Never Walk Alone," is thrilling.
Johan The fans are what it's all about and the municipality has a vested interest in keeping the team around for many many reasons. I believe AZ was finally saved by local business men so no disagreement at all. This must be that they turned a corner and realized how important the team is If Arnhem gets a better team there will be more of a buy in from the local govt. as things grow and hopefully local/ municipal support gets behind this team like it sounds like it has not before Home come this football blog is getting lyrical andv poetic all of a sudden?
Well that's been my point all along! If whathisname drops his support for Vitesse now there is no way anyone in Arnhem will come to their rescue. And Arnhem has come to the rescue of Vitesse twice in the past ten years!
Vitesse has had a silent, empty stadium for years in the first place. They've been near bankrupcy several times, dead and burried only to be saved by investors and tax payers money. I know Johan represents the entirety of footballwatching Holland but even in de Gelredome there are a lot of people who applaud this decision. Also, I think Chelsea, Man U and Liverpool are doing okay since they sold their soul to the devil.
Agreed. But Man U and Liverpool doing great? I'm in for a bet if you are... Man U will be broke and under new (white knight) ownership within 4 years. That's the positive thing about the Vitesse takeover. As far as I know it is not debt financed.
I say okay, and you say great. Some people always got to exaggerate, don't they? No I'm not interested in the bet cause I know too little about it. Got more info on the Man u situation? I'm interested.
Google 'debt and ManU' and you'll find hundreds of links. The big difference of course is that a new owner will always appear for the likes of ManU when things go belly up. I don't think Vitesse have that luxury. The more I think about this the more I think this has to do with Chelsea's need to offload foreign bench warmers (what with the new foreigner rule in the premiership)
Fair point you've got there.. I'll use the Football & Economics thread but I'll have to update myself as well. Recently read that ManU now have more than 1 billion in debt. Seems that Glazier & sons are sucking the club dry.
agreed and i'l go even further In the case of--one or 2 players, they would simply ask other Eredivisie teams to take them --like Alex was-- If this plays out like i think it's along those lines but more a second team situation where they now have their B squad in Holland--players that need to play but there is no room on the bg squad--and this way Chelsea can easily exceed the 25 man limit--perhaps as many as 10 of their B squad in Arnhem