Christ almighty. Really? We're being this pedantic in an attempt to cover up the fact that Chivas fans are complaining that criticism towards their team is coming from a place of racism while ignoring the overt racism practiced by the Front Office of the team they support. Give me a break.
My biggest problem is that Mexicanismo isn't going to work on the field. When guys like Jonny Bornstein are making $500K/year as reserves, what incentive is there for any talented, in-his-prime mid-level Mexican player to come to MLS? And why would big Chivas let them go? Now, a South American-heavy MLS team coached by Guille with 8 South Americans (3 DPs) on the roster backfilled with U.S. draftees and a few more S.A. green card holders that trained down in Argentina every winter and played a specific style of futbol might actually work in this league. South Americans are available at a much more MLS-friendly price point than Mexican players. While still discriminatory to some degree, I think a "Club America USA" template could actually work on the field.
But it was not a solid concept because it did not allow for contingency with regard to unanticipated underperformance.
I think you might have taken that the wrong way. He only quoted part of my post -- the part where I set out what I think is Vergara's working hypothesis. I wasn't saying it is a solid concept. I was just saying that 1) Vergara thinks it is, and that 2) Vergara thinks poor management was the reason the concept failed. Anyway, now I'm just repeating what I already said.
Sorry but the concept itself was questionable (and mildly racist to begin with). But the real problem was the execution. The moron wants to appeal to all Mexicans and Mexican Americans but immediately limits himself to only those Mexicans and Mexican Americans who have ties to or like Chivas Guad. They tried to broaden their appeal to some minor success of the last couple of years and now on top of their original mistake by "Re Mexicanizing" he's now alienating those non-Mexican fans Chivas has gained in the last handful of years after the first attempt at being some bastardized Chivas team failed. The term "cluster********" and Chivas USA go together hand in hand after this latest press conference.
From 2006-2008 they did just fine on the field and their attendance wasn't bad for the league standards at the time. Then they got rid of Preki and a bunch of players and they never recovered. I think if they do well on the field they will do ok in the stands.
What did Vergara say on Tuesday that included "Racial and Exclusive"? Seriously, have you not heard me on "Around The League" or "What the Flock?!" Look up those podcasts for more insight. Unless you prefer to stay ignorant. We were at the press conference. We spoke face to face with him. Take our word for it. Here's food for thought: 1-Chivas USA is not moving to San Diego or anywhere else. 2-We are re-igniting the coloseum deal started by Domene/Cue Bros./Shawn Hunter previously. It would include a partnership with the USC Athletic Dept. (potentially) to share the stadium with the Lady Trojans soccer team. There's still more questions there. Obviously. 3-Vergara is considering adding "Los Angeles" to the name pending MLS approval. This was said in the seperate Supporters meeting with Vergara after the press conference. 4-Being a more Mexican club means living up to the "high standards" of the Guadalajara brand. I'm still confused about this. He wants more "latin-style" play. We've already heard this tired talking point. He never said I only want Mexicans or Mexicans to play this style. He wants more LA kids and Latinos in general on this team. (Basically, we need to be up to the standard of play as all other teams in the MLS. Most MLS teams have rosters heavy with Latinos, so is that really being exclusive?) 5-He screwed up in 2005. He admitted it as plain as day. He felt that in being pragmatic and hiring Bob Bradley and Preki (our two most succesful coaches, btw), he neglected his project and gave too much control away. We can argue this all we want, but Vergara needed to admit he underestimated the quality of play in the MLS. He sort of admitted it by making it a point to say that Chivas USA needs better players from Guadalajara this time. We'll see. I'm still unlcear about this one. 6-He's dying for a second chance. The man came across more humble than ever publicly. If quieted the crowd by reminding them about how much he spent to get the club in the MLS and how much spent to get full ownership. 7-This is his team now. No more excuses. N o more delays. 8-We should have a head coach in a week or so. He'll be either Mexican, Argentinian, or Dutch. My hope is we hire Marco van Basten. Ok, seriously I guess "latin-style" play really means Dutch style, which may mean Barca style. Once again, our first two coaches (Westerhof and Rongren) were Dutch, so we might go back to the future. Meh. As long as its not a rookie coach, I'm ok with it. Kust ok. Oh, and some gut named Johan Cruyff is leading the search and is working as an advisor. Any of you who know me, knows that I don't drink "kool aid" from Guadalajara. I call as I see it. My only point is that the "Mexico vs USA" thing is one thing and "Chivas USA sucks" because its too Mexican is another. I'm pro MLS, but I got to call it as I see it. Our management has been a joke and until recently, was barely on life support. As a fan, I have to wait and see. As of right now, I have not renewed my season tickets. My two cents. Pontificate, if you must. ELAC
so as a fan of Chivas USA you are fine with being the 2nd fiddle to a team in another league that MLS is theoretically trying to compete with? you are okay with always being the afterthought to Guad? you are fine being a minor league affiliate of Chivas Guad? frankly that is the whole issue i have with Chivas USA ... it is an insult to MLS that they have allowed an owner from a competing league to come into their own league and set up essentially a permanently second class to Guad feeder club and brand expansion? if in 20 years MLS has overtaken LigaMX your club will still be the one club that's owner has a vested interest in keeping as inferiour and 2ndary to Chivas Guad? because Veraga's ego will never allow for the possibility of the MLS Chivas overtaking and superceeding the LigaMX original true Chivas Guad. are you okay with that? because i would never be as a fan and i am insulted that such an entity exists in MLS.
I think there's a fine line here. Does he really want the club to play a certain style regardless of the ethnic makeup of the club, or does he have some preconceived notion of how a "Latino" player plays, and therefore in order to create the style he feels like the team has to be primarily Latino. The hiring of guys like Johan Cruyff makes me think it's the former, but then he sometimes makes comments that make me think it's the latter. Having a club that truly aspires to a certain style of play is cool. That makes the league more interesting, but depends on whether or not it's really all about that in his mind. Is the club really intended to forever be a 2nd class citizen to CdG or is it more of a wait and see how it all plays out. This could start to turn around or level out over the next several years. If his overriding goal is to expand the Chivas brand internationally, I don't see how it fundamentally different than what Red Bull is trying to do, except that he is not also trying to sell crappy, unhealthy,over-caffeinated, potentially dangerous beverages. I don't mind at all having Chivas USA in the league. It's a really interesting, controversial experiment, and as you can see, we have a hard time not talking about it. No matter how much Ismitje wants us to confine our discussion in this thread to the stadium issue, we can't stop talking about "the experiment / concept" that is Chivas USA. And to the extent the whole thing doesn't work, it's one less competent competitor in the Western Conference :--).
the difference is the Red Bull brand is a drink and a sports marketing brand ... it is not Red Bull Salzburg brand. so for Red Bull they don't care which of their teams is dominant or ends up being the highest profile. the Chivas brand IS Chivas d Guad ... so there is no way you can allow your central brand to be overtaken by a peripheral brand. Vergara loves Chivas Guad and everything he does, including his "vision" for MLS Chivas is to promote and make better the Chivas d Guad team and thus brand ... those are two entirely different things.
This point will probably be the biggest indication of what the "new" CUSA will look like going forward. It's great that he wants to bring in a "foreign" coach to the league (i.e. one that isn't familiar with the league's operations) but if he doesn't pair the coach up with a nucleus of staff members that are tried and tested in the league, I can see a Gullit v2.0 hitting LA. Vergara needs to build the team as an MLS club first, then try to shape the team into a more attractive product and not the other way around.
I think the brand is "Chivas". CdG just happens to be their flagship product at the moment. There is no reason this can't be a long term play. And when you consider all of the potential products associated with a "brand", I don't know that it is fundamentally different than Red Bull. In the end they are both just brands. After all, they are Chivas USA, not Chivas de Guadalajara de USA
don't be stupid. without Chivas d G there wouldn't be a Chivas brand at all ... without any of the Red Bull football teams there would still be a Red Bull Brand .... apples ... oranges. that would be like saying the Lakers brand isn't intrinsically tied to the LA Lakers even if they started feeder teams in China or Europe.
This, I wish I could rep you multiple times. I honestly think ole is full of sour grapes just because an american club has the brand of an international recognized club.
Nothing "stupid" about it, thanks though. As a brand develops over time, it is typically kick-started with a "flagship product". CdG could continue to be the flagship product for many years, but that doesn't mean that other products can't compete with that over time. At one point the Mac was Apple's flagship product (and before that the Apple II). And then they created the iPhone, and then the iPad. I don't know what they'd consider their flagship product at this point, but these are all highly successful products under the Apple brand. I don't see how this model couldn't be applied to Chivas or any other brand.
because this is sports ... and sports brands are directly tied to the originating team. please give me one example of a sports team that grew into a brand and then started subsidiary teams to foster that brand that was then overtaken by one of those peripheral teams which became the "flagship" of that brand? i'll just wait while you come up with an example. Chivas d Guad IS the Chivas brand ... everything else is subservient and always will be ... and if Chivas USA fans are fine with that, the few of them that exist, then that is on them ... but i don't want that in MLS as MLS tries to grow and overtake LigaMX as the premier league in North America.
No. No. No. I don't like cancer, world hunger, or diabetes either. That doesn't mean I complain my way to a cure either. Wait and see, is all Im saying. Frankly, I believe you have many "issues". Chivas USA is here because all MLS owners are good with it. Don Garber thinks it'll still flourish. Xenophobia is something I come to expect being a CUSA fan and supporter. I get your concerns but you should direct your energy in getting a straight answer from the league. Many other American franchise have foreign ownership. Tampa Bay Bucaneers. Brooklyn Nets. I think you have a beef with Mexican ownership in general and for that you should look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are a bigot. I am being serious. Pm me. Let's talk about your issues. Wanna talk about it on my podcast? Your points are valid and you might be a bigot. No offense. ELAC
There doesn't have to be an "example". That's what experimentation / innovation is all about. I don't think there's any reason why the notion of brand and flagship product, and the development over time of additional successful products within the brand can't apply to sports. The whole idea of an international sports brand is relatively new, but is not necessarily a wild idea given the "global economy". Think different, Gun!
it has nothing to do with race or nationality. it has nothing to do with foreign ownership. it has to do with ownership that is not 100% invested in MLS and only/primarily MLS. if you look at my posting history you'll also notice that i am firmly against the current MLS ownership groups who have other sporting priorities other than MLS who seem to be doing the worst job running their MLS teams (like Kraft, Hunt, MLSE, etc). for the most part, the most successful MLS teams have ownership that is SOLELY dedicated to their MLS teams (from a sports perspective) ... that is what i wan't for MLS teams ... to be owned by people who care passionately and are competent about their MLS teams to the exclusion of other sporting endeavours. and you didn't address my question. are you, as a Chivas USA fan, okay with being a 2nd class citizen to your owner? are you fine being a glorified feeder team/minor league affiliate to a team in a league which MLS is ostensibly trying to compete with and eventually overtake?