Valencia vs Real Madrid | La Liga | Match day 17 | 12/22/13 | 21:00 (Local)

Discussion in 'Real Madrid' started by surgeon, Dec 22, 2013.

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  1. plyka

    plyka Member

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    Madrid will win the double this year. Hopefully CL is included. This team is much better than most fans believe. If you compare their growth from earlier in the season you see quite a massive difference. At least we don't have people calling ancelotti the worst manager in the world.

    Bale Benz and Ronaldo make an incredible attacking trident and ancelotti basically lucked into a modric isco Alonso midfield. Its an amazing team. The defense is lacking but I have confidence in them as well, as long as varane returns to health.


  2. plyka

    plyka Member

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    So spell out your theory for me. Is it big bad zidane who has hatched this conspiracy to give minutes to an undeserving player? Who is in on it? Perez? Ancelotti? The nsa and the Cia in it as well?

    There is a lot of pressure on the coaching staff for immediate wins. There is also a lot of pressure on Perez. What incentive do these people have to make their team worse on purpose? What's more likely, that there is a grand conspiracy behind the scenes to make the team worse on purpose and zidane is the one keeping the secret meetings? Or the coaching staff actually believe him to be the best choice and your admitted hatred is causing you to see conspiracies in every direction?

    Do you sincerely believe that if morata was going to give this team a better chance to win that the coaching staff would choose losing on purpose? Does this make any sense?
  3. 4x4s

    4x4s Moderator Staff Member

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    If we wanted to have the best possible strikers we'd keep Higuain and put him in direct competition with Benzema again, in which Benzema would be polishing the bench with his trousers now.

    We kept Morata in order to take pressure off Benzema. Ancelotti went into the season saying Benzema is his number 1 striker, as a definite decision. He didn't eve promise a competition like Iker and Diego Lopez, he just said Benzema will play.

    The idea that Benzema would preform better without any competition and pressure didn't work out. And yet, even when he's absolutely dragging his feet he's rarely subbed before the 75th minute. If it wouldn't be for daddy Zizou, any coach would ask for a striker this December.
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2013
  4. YOUNGSTARS87

    YOUNGSTARS87 Yellow C@rd Bandit

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    One would think Higuain had no faults with how some of you talk. Dude was inconsistent and struggled badly in CL play. Had he been consistent this scenario would have actually happened.

    Instead we were stuck with two strikers who had bright spots but none who actually made the position his own. Both good players, but both just not owning it.
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  5. demo_g

    demo_g Member+

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    I agree with YS87 here. I always liked Higuan more than Benzema but he is not a true world class player and he was way too inconsistent and had a tendency to disappear in big games.
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  6. 4x4s

    4x4s Moderator Staff Member

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    Gonzalo scored 27 League goals in the 09/10 season. Something Benzema has never achieved in his life. Not at Lyon, not in Madrid He outscored Benzema in every single League campaign besides the one that he spent most of the time out injured. Benzema's stats in the CL are better, but over the course of a season, i'd have Higuain over Benzema in my team every time i have to chose.

    Higuain is the better player. More dependable domestically, better worker, better character.
  7. demo_g

    demo_g Member+

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    I did a little research. They played together for four seasons and this are their stats

    Benzema

    Goals: 88
    Assists: 54
    Minutes played: 10800
    Goal or assist every: 76 minutes

    Higuain

    Goals: 87
    Assists: 39
    Minutes played: 9800
    Goal or assist every: 77 minutes


    So basically they are pretty much equal. Higuain does have other advantages to him like fighting spirit, defensive work.... but he also disappears in most big games.
    Benzema is lazy and all, but his stats in big games are much better. At the end of the day I think the right thing to do this summer was to sold both of them and buy a world class striker. I do agree with you that I would rather keep Pipita than Benzema but neither of them is world class.
  8. Alma Merengue

    Alma Merengue Member+

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    This is frustrating as hell. Makes me fuucking mental.

    Cue the Benzema apologists with their "yeah, he's bad.... but it could be worst" line of reasoning. I can't believe how blind some people are to why the madridismo is fed with him.
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  9. plyka

    plyka Member

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    They may still get a striker in the next window. I'm not saying that they won't. Benz has not been blazing the world on fire. But the idea that has grown on this board that there is some sort of conspiracy in the works by Zidane and his henchmen to get the guy more minutes regardless of his performances does not make any sense.

    I'm wondering what your argument is:

    1) Ancelotti is making an honest mistake in choosing to play Benz over the other options, he doesn't realize the other options would perform better.
    or
    2) Ancelotti an co realize that Benz is inferior to his competition, but they play the player that will make the team worse.

    I can understand the first one, but the second is preposterous.
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  10. YOUNGSTARS87

    YOUNGSTARS87 Yellow C@rd Bandit

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    This is funny because in the end of all that you gloss over the fact that Benzema is better in the CL like it is some minute difference when in reality it is a gigantic gulf.

    Subjectivity.

    Higuain was inconsistent and a no-show in CL, but also was a hard worker and a good player.
    Benzema is inconsistent and extremely nonchalant, but would actually appear in big matches and is a good player.

    The facts are your initial post I quoted, just isn't reality. Even if Higuain was here he'd still be the same inconsistent player who disappears in big matches/CL, no differently then Benzema is a non-chalant oaf. They both would be irritating us with their inconsistency and just like last year we'd be wishing for a new and better striker.

    Even at Napoli Higuaiin has already struggled with a drought. When we sell Benzema, you can bet he will lazy/don't give a ******** with his new club as well.
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  11. YOUNGSTARS87

    YOUNGSTARS87 Yellow C@rd Bandit

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    People are loopy on this board. On one hand they say Morata hasn't had a good game in forever, then on the other they say "Start him ahead of Benzema!".

    The shit is funny on some bi-polar shit.

    If Morata was playing well, I'd be all for him starting, but when he is even worse? No thanks. Fuuck the passive aggressive, I am right nonsense of BS; in the end I just want the team to win.
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  12. Digital

    Digital Member

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    My unpopular thought is the player who I think hurts the flow of this team the most with his individual displays is Ronaldo, but I have always thought that , it's a good thing that he's a great goalscorer, I have never thought much of his team play.
    This does not mean he's not a great player.
  13. 4x4s

    4x4s Moderator Staff Member

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    Higuain's goals in the League have helped us win League titles though. His goals have merit. Even if Benzema leaves tomorrow, there is not a single CL game that will remain unforgotten, despite his "amazing CL record".

    Totally not allowed.

    Well guess what. No player is perfect, but overall, Higuain has more advantages to his personality and game than Benzema. Subjectivity, oh no! Since you're so good at judging what would've happened, let's look at this season with both players bein undisputed starters for their club shall we?

    Higuain scored 4 goals in 5 games in the Champions League this season, Benzema scored 2 goals in 5 games.

    Napoli scored 10 goals, Real Madrid scored 20 in the group stage. 4/10 vs 2/20.

    Higuain is outdoing Benzema. Not in the League since Higuain has just one goal more than Benzema (then against Napoli have scored a lot less goals than Real Madrid, so Higuain has a bigger share of the goals at Napoli and has more responsibility), but he did so in the CL.

    Higuain has been better for Napoli than Benzema has been for us, and we're a much better team. Then again, being better than Benzema isn't that much of an achievement nowadays is it?

    Benzema has played like 50 times more than Morata. I'm not saying we should sub Benzema forever, but getting him out of the field when he's not relevant to the game at the 60th minute would not hurt his ego too bad.
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  14. YOUNGSTARS87

    YOUNGSTARS87 Yellow C@rd Bandit

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    You realize you're using what he did when he was 19 and 20 to justify a statement you made about him as a 25 year old?

    His goal would have had merit and sent us into a final had Higuain made instead of missing yet another CL opportunity. Which returns us to my initial point of both players being inconsistent and flawed.

    Come on man, you kill Benzema for every sitter missed; I don't blame you. Then you make light of Higuain's misses just because you like the guy a lot.

    Totally missed the point.


    Worthless stat considering one is just another man on his team and the other is the man on his team. Higuain isn't defering to Cristiano anymore. Poor example.

    See the above. You can get angry and bring out as many meaningless facts as you want (here's more; who has more assists or who has ran more 10km) but I will continue to point at the fact Higuain was made a starter here and couldn't keep the position because he was inconsistent. The Benzema you hate would outplay him and he'd be on the bench. Benzema would be crap and Higuain would then replace him. This would flip and flop.

    Your initial post was false, just accept it. Had it been true we damn sure wouldn't have went trophy less last season and we'd have made the CL final (not putting all blam on Higauin, Cristiano and Ozil's moment of selfishness helped)


    I am not against subbing Benzema. Read the match threads.
  15. 4x4s

    4x4s Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm using something Benzema never did. Maybe it's luck, maybe it's something else. Benzema is going into his final contract year and has played so many games but he doesn't have that charisma that people could remember him by. Ruud came to our club and instantly became a fan favourite as well.

    People like Higuain because he does his best, and always makes you feel like it. He's a hero for Napoli fans and he just joined them months ago. You're speaking as if i just happened to like Higuain.

    It's not a worthless stat when the team scores twice as many goals and you manage to score half as many. Are you saying no striker would have scored more than 2 goals for us in this CL campaign so far?

    You are speaking hypothetically while i am comparing facts, based on how they play and behave on the pitch. Both have their right to exist as arguments, it depends on you to chose whether you want to believe in the hypothetical idea of the form that Higuain could possibly be, or simply compare the players based on what they do right now. They take a similar amount of shots on goal by the way so it's not like Benzema is being completely selfless here.

    This is not a discussion whether or not Higuain is the best striker in Europe. This is a discussion about whether or not he's doing better than Benzema right now, and he is.

    The fact that Benzema was a Perez signing, and he's closely connected to Zidane played a huge part to who we would keep.I don't think we would be massively better with Higuain instead of Benzema in Madrid right now, but some things would be less complicated.

    You are right. Your argument was of tremendous quality and convinced me.

    I don't even think you disagree with me to be honest.
  16. Lyra

    Lyra Member+

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    Very sorry to say but with this sort of porous defence we ain't winning anything major.There might not be a single team with a better attackers than us but we are terrible with the defending counterpart.
    There are teams with no big names in the back 4 and yet they manage to concede much lesser than us.Carlo has to figure something ut before it's too late.
  17. Alma Merengue

    Alma Merengue Member+

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    "Isn't playing well enough to deserve the opportunities that a shit player has gotten" .... et tu logic?
  18. plyka

    plyka Member

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    I like morata, not as much as Jesse of course, but morata is a fine player for his age. Ready to be the #1 striker in Madrid? Lol. I don't think so. Let's let the guy mature and develop and talk about it in a year or two. Ancelotti has to make real decisions fans make fake decisions. The latter are much easier to make.
  19. plyka

    plyka Member

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    There is some truth to your thoughts on Ronaldo. Everyone can improve their play even Ronaldo.
  20. Anon.

    Anon. Member

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    I'm probably in the minority on this one, but I just don't think Morata is all that. Appreciate that he's not had a lot of playing time, but I'm just not convinced that he's (starting) Real Madrid material ala Granero, Soldado, Callejon, etc. unlike Jese.

    I get the work-rate and attitude rhetoric, I just don't think he has the right level of quality to be a main striker at our club.
  21. mymy33

    mymy33 BigSoccer Supporter

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    Morata definitely has the quality you'd like to see in a starting striker for, if you compare him to the likes of a Soldado or Negredo at the same age the difference is pretty pronounced. If you've only seen him in the first team minutes he's gotten it might be hard to see his "it" factor though. Alvaro is 20 years old and very raw, we all know that. I think the wrong question is being asked though, it's not whether he is ready to be our starting striker, he isn't. The question, at least for me, is whether the minutes Benzema is wasting currently might be more better given to "bleed" Morata. And maybe not all of them but definitely a good bit more than he is getting right now. How much worse can it get at this point? How much less of a chance of winning does playing Morata over this version of Benz give us?
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2013
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  22. YOUNGSTARS87

    YOUNGSTARS87 Yellow C@rd Bandit

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    Which is saying something when he did his best here for years and still couldn't take the job completely away from Benzema's nonchalant ass.


    Actually you're speaking using a hypothetical argument while ignoring the facts we have from both being here in the past. I like Higuain, but I don't give a damn what he has done for Napoli. I have seen what he has done for Madrid the past years and it left a lot to be desire... just like Benzema currently.

    It is precisely why both should/will be out of this club by the summer.


    Switch Higuain for Benzema and the complaint turn from "Why is he so shit and freaking passive!" to "Why the hell can't he get his shit together in big/CL matches!". In the end both were "good" but Real Madrid needs more than what they have shown to bring in the shirt.
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  23. 4x4s

    4x4s Moderator Staff Member

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    Which is why we'll never agree. You overlook his good current form and speak of a hypothetically bad one, just to put him level with Benzema who is playing badly and is being totally out done by Gonzalo this season, even in the CL which is about the only thing Benzema had going for him.

    Higuain is being better than Benzema in both League and Champions League competitions this season. Form went up for Gonzalo, while it went down for Benzema. It's that simple.

    Using your argument, what Suarez does with Liverpool and Ag├╝ero does with Manchester City is irrelevant, it shouldn't even matter because it only matters when they play for us. We'll just have to throw the dice and buy just anybody because current form for other clubs is an irrelevant factor: What's relevant is the imaginary form they would currently have if they were playing for Real Madrid.
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  24. YOUNGSTARS87

    YOUNGSTARS87 Yellow C@rd Bandit

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    Again, this is incorrect. I overlook his current form with Napoli because Napoli is not Real Madrid. It is comparing apples to oranges. Why compare apples (Madrid) to oranges (Napoli) when we can compare apples (Madrid) to apples (Madrid)? After all your original post is if Higuain never left. Had he never left he would be the same inconsistent player. We know how Higuain has performed in a Madrid shirt no differently than we know how Benzema has. Attempting to bring other variables in order to distort the truth just won't cut it here.

    Even if you want to force Napoli in this conversation he has even been inconsistent with Napoli struggling through a dry spell.
  25. 4x4s

    4x4s Moderator Staff Member

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    And even then he managed to be better than Benzema has. Higuain is the better player right now. You have to be stupid to not agree. Every single statistic points to Higuain being in better form right now. We're talking about current form and you're saying "It's irrelevant, he'd be in bad form for us based on what he's done in the past", which is speculative, and hypothetical.

    Right now, if we compare three football players, Suarez, Higuain, and Benzema, in what order would you rate them based on their performances this season? That's what it's all about.

    We also know that Higuain has continued his dependable form in the League (which has always been top, and better than Benzema's), and added CL goals to his repertoire. What has Benzema done to defend his attribute of being the superior scoere in Europe? Score 2 out of 20 goals. Not good.

    Hiauin in better form right now again. You can keep looking to the past, but right now, Higuain is without a shadow of a doubt the more in form and useful player. There is no discussion about this.

    You keep saying i am obscuring facts and doing this and that when you're looking at the past and are trying to set up a theory how Higuain would perform based on his former years, in which he outscored Benzema domestically, every single season they both played. his weakness was goals in Europe, and Benzema's strength was that factor. This season, Higuain scored 4 out of 10 goals in Europe for his team, while Benzema scored 2 out of 20. He's really bad. Benzema has only a single assist more than Higuain, and his team scored twice as many goals!

    This isn't even a Higuain vs Benzema that Higuain is winning. Higuain scored as many goals as Lewandowski has, has given as many assists as Lewandowski has, and played a game less.

    Higuain improved, Benzema fell short of expectations.
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