USMNT: Identity Lost

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by Sam Hamwich, Feb 7, 2013.

  1. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    The first two that tied the game can be put directly on Bornstein. That was the game changer. Plain and simple.

    Mexico scored quickly in the second half, we were unlucky not to tie it up later. Hit the post. And were consistently dangerous in the second half. It wasn't until Howard went AWOL in the penalty area that the game got away from us.

    If Cherundolo stays healthy in that game, the US likely wins. Cherundolo getting hurt changed the entire complexion of that game and anyone who says otherwise is a complete and total idiot.
     
  2. yankeeRoyal

    yankeeRoyal Member+

    Feb 12, 2006
    Alexandria, VA
    Club:
    Bahia Salvador
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Parkhust is a very good player. The USMNT has a tremendous record with him on the field, something like 13 wins 2 draws 2 losses......which could be explained away easily if his club teams weren't winning with him on the field as well.
     
  3. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

    May 21, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Edgar Castillo was in that game, yes, but it definitely wasn't completely his doing that we walked out of there with a tie...
     
  4. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich Member+

    Jul 11, 2006
    as NearPost is fond of saying: know your players.

    if we are playing a euro club or canada, I have no problem with parkhurts. Against Jamaica, Panama, CR, Hondy, Mexico, they will just dance around him. At least Chandler has the up and down speed to supposedly track back. Same for FJ / Castillo. We have enough good RB's throughout MLS to choose from.
     
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  5. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    We bunkered the entire game and didn't start attacking until Mexico subbed out half their starters. End of story.

    The notion that Castillo was some Godsend that Bradley overlooked is beyond dumb, especially since Castillo was dumped from the national team by Klinsmann for 8 months after his second game in charge.
     
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  6. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Feb 11, 2011 was after the last time the 3 players that you said was responsible for BB 's results trailing off 2011 were ever used.

    Shea and Gonzales was used for ~ 1 half on Jan 22, 2011 and never again used in 2011. Cameron was never used in 2011 by BB. Interesting that those 3 players were used a grand total of 1 match in 2011 (a 1-1 tie) yet you claim they made caused BB results to trail off.

    In a parallel universe?
     
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  7. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    You need to work on the reading comprehension skills, because the entire discussion of right back was in relation to the 2011 Gold Cup roster.

    And you can't really deny that Bradley was trying to transition in new players following the 2010 World Cup because he realized that we were in a transition phase. Feel free to argue semantics if you want, but the truth is the truth.

    I said "players like". I wasn't putting blame on anyone. Simply pointing out that we were starting to bleed in new players post WC, which is why results started to tail off.
     
  8. MI-Soccerfan

    MI-Soccerfan Member+

    Jan 19, 2012
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You only have one note huh. Make a blanket statement, get proven wrong, attack other person. Rinse and repeat

    You asked for other options they clearly existed

    Castillo, Spector, pearce, Loyd, Bocanegra slides over.... Lets call it what it is, Bradley choose to use Bornstein and it was a HUGE mistake. Reality is that Bob Bradley was not perfect.
     
  9. MI-Soccerfan

    MI-Soccerfan Member+

    Jan 19, 2012
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I didn't say it was. I was asked what options Bradley had besides Bornstein.
     
  10. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    Pearce was lousy in a US jersey for a long time and had been justifiably dropped from the team.

    Spector was on the roster despite playing like shit in England towards the end of the season.

    Our CB situation was a shambles thanks in large part to Gooch never recovering, which is why Boca was more needed in the center.

    Loyd? Really?

    And Castillo had never shown anything of merit in a US jersey up to that point and quite frankly was a token call up early on under Klinsmann who had on numerous occasions talked about integrating "latin" players into the program. No shock that Castillo was dropped completely for 8 months following the Costa Rica friendly, and even then, only got mop up minutes in friendlies as the 6th sub in a couple games after that.

    Sorry pal, those other options didn't exist.

    I agree 100%. But revisionists like yourself like to pretend that guys like Stuart Holden were superstars in 2007 being held back by nepotism and that Bornstein was a "favorite" of Bob, despite the fact that Bradley threw everything but the kitchen sink at the LB position in an effort to keep Bornstein off the field.

    But when push comes to shove, if no viable alternatives emerge, you have to just cross your fingers and hope that nobody gets hurt. Unfortunately, that didn't happen.
     
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  11. Grogtank

    Grogtank Member

    Sep 5, 2009
    Vegas Baby
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Everything I mentioned happened after Dolo went down. Dolo going down was a game changer because of the inability of Bob to A. make the right sub and B. properly adjust throughout the first half.

    Again, everything I mentioned happened after Dolo went down and Bornstein was subbed in the 11th minute. We were up 1-0 at that point. Every point I made was about how we should have but failed to respond properly. I haven't ignored anything! I am actually addressing the match tactically and you are blaming it all on Dolo while trying to shine Bob's ass like half the other people around here.
     
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  12. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    So what would the proper play have been? To bunker and hope like hell that Mexico would find the net for 89 minutes?

    Feel free to go back and read my posts in the post match threads following that game. You'll see that I was actually one of the more critical voices to Bob's decision to use Bornstein in that game.

    I still don't like the decision, but I at least have the capacity to understand the decision, rather than pretend that there was some host of other options available that Bradley ignored out of favoritism for a certain player.

    If you want to stretch reality a bit, there were three choices.

    1) straight swap, putting in Spector for Dolo. But Spector had been playing like crap for his club team leading up to the Gold Cup.

    2) Move Lichaj right, slide Boca out left and put in Tim Ream. But Ream had been a walking calamity in MLS that season.

    3) Make the change that he made.

    I personally would have chosen option #1, but that would have been a gamble as well. Just wouldn't have had to do as much shuffling.
     
  13. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich Member+

    Jul 11, 2006
    Gvpat you do this in every thread. Talk about bob. Attack other posters for not agreeing.

    This thread was created to highlight the effects playing style can have on
    How the team creates its identity. The lack of consistent playing style
    has left the usmnt adrift. Anything to contribute on the topic? Or shall we expect
    your six hundredth post on how much you wish bob Bradley were your father/brother/ close confidant?
     
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  14. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    We had an identity before. People just didn't like it, regardless of if it was effective or not.

    Identity is dictated by the player pool, not by the coach. Always has been that way, always will be that way. That is the nature of the beast in international soccer.

    So I guess when trying to establish an identity, you first need to look at strengths and weaknesses.

    Fitness and athleticism is a strength of the player pool. Size, strength. We lack top end speed, but we aren't exactly slow either.

    Weaknesses would be a general lack of creative players (especially in the final third) and the lack of any TRUE wing players. Our center backs also have a tendency to be naive (to put it nicely).

    I think Bob had a pretty good grasp on what our identity should be (counter attacking) but his system needed some tweaks.

    I don't give a shit about distribution out of the back. That ain't our current player pool.
    I don't give a shit about possession. Its completely wasted with our player pool.

    Unfortunately, those are the two things that the majority of posters on here fantasize about when diddling themselves at night, so Klinsmann will pander to that and we'll continue to struggle.

    I actually liked the idea Klinsmann had of using a dedicated 6. Under BB we tended to use two holding mids on a pulley system, which left our CBs more exposed.

    I don't think we are an "effective" possession team. We are certainly capable of keeping possession, but the deliberateness in our possession allows opponents to set up defensively and we struggle to break them down.

    Ultimately, we need to be a team that transitions from the middle third to the attacking third much faster and more directly. And we can't be afraid to commit numbers forward.

    I don't think we are suited to be a high pressure team (with some exceptions). I think we are better off transitioning from the attacking third to the middle third and setting up defensively more so than trying to force turnovers.

    But that's just me. What I do know is that deliberate possession and a general lack of numbers in the final third isn't working.
     
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  15. Grogtank

    Grogtank Member

    Sep 5, 2009
    Vegas Baby
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I thought I already pointed this out but perhaps I haven't been specific enough. Scenario is the GC final against our arch rivals. We are 1-0 up. We just made 2 changes to the back line. We are still pushing for a second goal.

    It's clear at this point Mexico is beginning to exploit our outside backs (mostly on our left), as they should. We score our second goal and are now up 2-0. It's now time to address the defensive issue that has popped up because of how hard we were pushing forward. Instead Bob made no changes. We continued to play very direct with our outside backs pushing forward.

    Mexico scores, surely now it's time to bunker/reset right? Knock it around some while keeping our fullbacks home, right? Try to establish a rhythm while taking away their obvious momentum, right? Apparently not, nothing changed. I was literally screaming at the TV at this point. They score the equalizer and never look back. We never regained any solid momentum and ate 4 unanswered goals after being up 2-0.

    This match was not all about Cherundolo's injury.
     
  16. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    And FYI, I pretty much never bring up Bob Bradley other than to point out inaccuracies and faulty memory on the part of a very vocal group of posters that consistently bring up (and over exaggerate) his faults in every thread.

    Its also funny how anyone who criticisms Klinsmann apparently wanted Bob Bradley to be coach for life and never wanted the US to improve.

    I've never advocated a 2 cycle coach. The US needed a change following the 2010 World Cup. Jurgen Klinsmann wasn't it. And its funny how after saying it for 18 months and being ridiculed by guys like you, guys like you are starting to see what was so freaking obvious 18 months ago.

    You, like a lot of posters, were so blinded by hatred for Bob Bradley that you'll gladly allow Klinsmann to walk our national team off of a cliff just because he talks a lot about change.
     
  17. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Member+

    Jun 23, 2006

    If these things he was doing also came with more shutouts, and being able to hold one FN lead we get on the road, then u leave it alone and see where it goes. We got none of that.

    I said very early that I was real scared of this Hex, maybe 6 mths in.

    We played in a way that we could only implement this style of his on the weakest of teams, and it would work against the best teams.

    Againat those middle of the road teams, like in the Hex, we would playing right I to their hands. We are to slow to break them down and they are good enough to hurt us. Bad combo for us. Every game will be playd on a knifes edge and there will be little room for error.

    JK is like the public school system. They make believ they want to push everyone ahead, when all they are really doing is slowing everybody down, so that everyone is the same. No excelling here.
     
  18. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    Are you suggesting that he should have made a second first half sub?

    We were never going to out-possess Mexico with the players that we have. And I really can't fault Bob for trying to get to halftime before making an adjustment.

    Taking that goal in the 36th minute killed us, but it really isn't reasonable to expect a coach to make wholesale changes in the first half after already being forced to use a sub in the 11th minute.

    And the part about never looking back simply isn't true. The US was extremely dangerous and close to equalizing multiple times in the second half. It wasn't until Howard gifted Mexico their 4th goal that the game was truly out of reach.

    Bob did make adjustments in the second half and we were unlucky that we didn't score.
     
  19. Grogtank

    Grogtank Member

    Sep 5, 2009
    Vegas Baby
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I could not be any more clear in what I said. That you don't get it says a lot. You can't see the forest for the tree's.
     
  20. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    What I got was, you were screaming at the TV but offer up absolutely no alternative tactics other than "we should have played better possession against the best possession team in our region". That's like saying, we should just out-Brazil Brazil.

    We were NEVER going to control possession with any semblance of consistency against Mexico. It wasn't going to happen. We could have bunkered in and hoped that Howard played the game of his life. I'm not so sure that would have resulted in a better or worse result though.
     
  21. Grogtank

    Grogtank Member

    Sep 5, 2009
    Vegas Baby
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's not what I said and your ignorance of the game is really showing here.
     
  22. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    You keep telling yourself that if that makes you feel better.

    If that's not specifically saying to bunker in and try to out-possess the best possession team in the region, I don't know what is.
     
  23. Grogtank

    Grogtank Member

    Sep 5, 2009
    Vegas Baby
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Again, that's not what I said and your ignorance of the game is really showing here.
     
  24. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well... when you use the exact word bunker and the exact phrase "knock it around", that tends to suggest certain things. So maybe you aren't being clear.
     
  25. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    When someone uses the phrase "bunker" and "knock it around" and then says that they aren't saying to bunker in and play possession, it leads one to believe that person is the ignorant one.

    I mean, what the f*ck else could you possibly mean by "bunker" and "knock it around"?

    Maybe you should lay off the grog.

    Bunker, reset and knock it around. You are a brilliant tactician.
     

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