Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'USL Expansion' started by ButlerBob, Jan 2, 2012.
Here's a start of a new thread for expansion news or lack there of.
I'll start it off with Tucson moving up from PDL to Pro by 2014, & Phoenix joining the USL Pro by 2014. So the LA Blues won't be the only west coast team.
you think the LA Blues will make it 'til 2014? that seems HIGHLY unlikely unless they get some help in 2012. are any of the other west coast teams gonna step up in 2012? Victoria? Kitsap? Fresno Fuego? San Diego Flash? Hollywood United? does anybody know?
USL Pro can't go thru another year with one team west of the Mississippi, can they? they aren't that stoopid are they???
sorry, don't want to be that cynical but after the fiasco of the international division last year i just feel like they lost all credibility...
Well I have to believe there will be a major movement of teams from level four soccer to level three following the 2012 or 2013 season in the west coast.
It looks like there will not be any expansion for this year. And really at this point hope they don't. It's really kind of late to really prepare for a season if you are a brand new team. An existing PDL team with a pretty good fan base might be able to do it. So I guess I wouldn't be surprised if they did add a new team or 2.
Why do you "have" to believe this? The last two years USL has tried to get teams to move up from USL Pro, and the only one that has, Dayton, is a disaster on the field and at the gate. If anything, last year should have taught LA, Dayton, and FCNY that they belong a level down, and anyone not prepared to have an organization on the level of Richmond, Wilington, and Charleston should stay down there at PDL.
This will be a make or break year for LA. PDL teams have been watching closely but HIGHLY doubt there will ever be a West division. East coast teams hate the travel to the west and don't have much money as it is. The LA schedule this year does not favor them at all and LA got the short end of the stick. If the gate is not good again they intend to lose a lot of money. USL is holding them to their contract so they just can't bail out (yet).
So your saying that if any team moves up from the PDL that want to succeed, it should be to the NASL, not the USL Pro.
I cannot believe that LA is playing USLPRO again this year. Just can't believe it. What stupidity.
I also can't believe that the USL couldn't find anyone else to move up. But I guess with LA in there, that would stop me.
No, he's not saying that at all.
Moving from the amateur level to the professional level is fraught with challenges. Big challenges. It's very rarely even tried.
A few who tried:
San Francisco Bay Seals - went from the PDL in 1996 to the D3 Pro League in 1997 (and the A-League in 1998-99) and that didn't go well.
Cincinnati Riverhawks - went from the PDL in 1997 to the A-League in 1998 and somehow managed to remain in business until 2003 despite drawing about 800 people a game.
Miami Breakers - went from the PDL in 1997 to the D3 Pro League in 1998, and were right back down in the PDL the next two years before going out of business.
Nashville Metros - went from the PDL in 1996 to the A-League in 1997 and were at least able to stay afloat for a few years. But the owners eventually sold their slot to people who had to return an A-League team to Virginia Beach and they went back to the PDL (now they're supposedly talking about trying again).
Westchester Flames - after three years (1999-2001) in the PDL, they moved up to the D3 Pro League in 2002 and lasted three years at the Division 3 level before dropping back down to the PDL.
New York Freedoms - went from the PDL in 2001 to the D3 Pro League in 2002, lasted two years at the pro level, drew 170 people a game and went away.
Calgary Storm - went from the PDL in 2001 to the A-League in 2002, where they averaged about 1,200 people a game for two years and went bust.
Dayton Dutch Lions - went from the PDL in 2010 to USL Pro in 2011. Didn't go well, but they're back for 2012.
There are far, far more examples of teams dropping down a level (or even two) because it made little financial sense for them to be professional. Payroll, workman's comp, travel and increased standards are the big issues when you go from an amateur setup to a pro setup.
As for the western possibilities....look, honestly, "there are other teams in the same time zone as us" is only one of the factors you'd look at if you were deciding to put a team out this way, and it's far from the most important one.
Just because there might be a pro team in Tucson and might still be a pro team in LA and might be one God knows were else, anyone wanting to put a pro team in Phoenix is still going to have to:
Find a place to play; this is not insignificant. We're not exactly teeming with optimal stadiums up here, and even if you accept a spring training facility (largely unused during the summer), you still have to
Deal with the heat. I know, I know, "real fans" and all that bullshit. I got news for you, and it may not make sense to those who think soccer fandom is an exercise in how miserable you can be in support of your team, but soccer fandom is not an exercise in how miserable you can be in support of your team. No, it does not cool off acceptably up here in the summer, and while certainly you can play here at night in the summer (it's been done), your business plan kind of depends on paying customers and, I'm sorry, you're not going to get a lot of them for this sport, at this level, at this period in time, at 110 degrees. You're just not.
Be prepared to spend - and lose - a lot of money. It's expensive to do this well. The guy who started the Monsoon thought he could do this without spending any money and he was out of the picture well before Christmas. You can't do it well, you can't do it professionally, without spending, investing and suffering through losses. The recent history of this sport in this country shows us that unless you have an investor willing to stay the course, you're unlikely to succeed.
A Phoenix pro team is not inevitable. Tucson turning pro is not inevitable, though at least they have some infrastructure in place, so that's a decent start. They appear to have owners with a clue and some patience, so those are key things for them to have. But let's let them have their eight home PDL teams in 2011 and see how those go and let's see what happens with LA and let's see what before we start constructing some Manifest Destiny Conference for 2013 or 2014.
And as bad an idea as moving up from the PDL to USL Pro would be moving up from the PDL to the NASL. NASL budgets are even bigger than (most) USL Pro teams. Most PDL teams would be ill equipped to handle such a move.
So, no, that's not what he was saying at all.
Why? Who, exactly, would you think would be a viable candidate?
And what makes you think that if you can I can figure out that it would be a questionable move, that they couldn't figure it out?
For all my years of following soccer in this country, about 40 now, it still amazes at how few people understand how difficult it is for the game to work here, and just how much money it takes.
Especially now at the lower levels.
There always seems to be these assumed support out there that will make the game work in most areas.
Why are all these folks so dumb seems to be the common retort.
They aren't....well, usually. It should be why the hell are they so nuts to try and give this game a go? Are they insane?
That's the more reasonable thought process.
I guess I didn't state what I was thinking quite right.
I'm just surprised that, after all these years of at least one new team, if not dozens, that the USLPRO will have no new teams. It's pretty unprecedented. There always seems to be someone new willing to step out there, or some PDL team willing to give going pro a try.
Maybe this means that some sort of sense has finally been drummed into the USL. Maybe this means that the crappy economy has finally sucked up all the enthusiasm for crazy quixotic adventures.
Yeah, you and I have known this for years. I'm just a little surprised that the USL and the PDL teams have also apparently finally figured it out.
so, is that a yes, they are playing another year with one team west of the Mississippi? how the hell do they talk the other teams into making that flight to L.A. to play in front of 100 people? icantunderstandit...
Hey look, actual intelligent conversation on BS..... I'm being serious.
I'm very pleased that the US 'soccer pyramid' is starting to look more like a pyramid. I think it shows how healthy the sport has become.
Now can we please expand NOW at all levels...... now I'm kidding.... well sorta.
I like this guy.
Great information, as always on this board, The DDL are expanding to have a franchise in Texas so they must think they are doing something right. OCSC tells me the 2012 schedule will be out next Wed.(11 Jan) and then we'll know how many teams we have for 2012.
I'd be shocked if it was anything other than 11, but I shouldn't be shocked anymore.
If it is eleven, they should just go back to single table and play double round-robin for 20 games.
yes, quite fascinating, but doesn't answer the question- how does USL justify making the East Coast teams fly to L.A. in what is supposed to be a 'regional league'?
i can't imagine the East Coast teams are happy about it...
Six of them didn't have to fly there last year, so those six were just fine with it, I would imagine.
Antigua made two trips, Charlotte, Harrisburg, Dayton and Richmond one each.
And you can fly to LA from Charlotte for less than you can fly to Antigua and only slightly more than flying to Newark.
It's demand, not distance, that largely determines airfare within the US.
okay, how does USL justify L.A. and Antigua both, in that case
You do know decisions are made by the Board of Governors, right, not by fiat? It's not like you're the first person ever to bring this up.
i'm not the first to bring it up because it don't make any ********ing sense...
Doesn't make sense to me, either, but it's not our money and not our decision.
Even if you owned a team, you'd get one vote. You could lobby and harangue all you want, but you're still only one vote.
Personally, if it's me, I don't found a team 3,000 miles away from everybody else, but that's just me. And if I own an existing team, I don't want any part of an opponent 3,000 miles away unless you're going to tell me there's a bunch of them. And even then, I say "What's the use? This is lower-level soccer."
But I'd still be just one vote. It wouldn't be imposed upon me by fiat. LA was bound and determined to be professional. Edmonton was bound and determined to be at the D2 level even though their closest opponent is in Minnesota (and there was no guarantee there'd even be a team in Minnesota at the time). People do crazy things sometimes. Rant all you want. Ain't your money.
My comments in bold (I have no idea how to use Multiquote).
Good points throughout, Kenn. Sorry about the rant. Your post just clarified a few thoughts that were rattling around in my brain.
There 's been some pretty good discussion here about the business side of running a club and it's all been good. I've opened a thread where we can continue that disucussion. Below is the link. Continue the disucssion there.
Back to the topic of the thread. If wanted to put an expansion team in the USL Pro like Kenn mentioned I would be looking near where the current east coast teams are located. Specifcally I would be looking in the mid Atlantic region. Say from PA down to GA. That would give you the shortest travel to most of the teams.