Torres to start

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Pragidealist, May 25, 2012.

  1. deuteronomy

    deuteronomy Member+

    Angkor Siem Reap FC
    United States
    Aug 12, 2008
    at the pitch
    Club:
    Siem Reap Angkor FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Great post! I have the same questions.

    The concern that I have is that I look at the pool and key players and the optimal formation appears to be:

    1. A diamond 4-4-2 where the defense is weak and the players are like square pegs plugged into round holes.

    or

    2. Some variation of the 4-5-1 where we really have no effective target player or wingers.

    The missing observation recently, has been how Dempsey and Donovan might line up together with this new group.

    Here is the other laughable note. As we both know, Bob supposedly had better players than he was capable of utilizing. JK has, of course, many of the same players. Really, I have not seen that he has utilized them in a more masterful way than his predecessor. And certainly, we will know more after these upcoming matches.
     
  2. deuteronomy

    deuteronomy Member+

    Angkor Siem Reap FC
    United States
    Aug 12, 2008
    at the pitch
    Club:
    Siem Reap Angkor FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Some great points.

    Many of our questions about Torres will be revealed tonight. As has been noted, JK has pushed all of his chips tonight on the Torres card.
     
  3. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, this will be interesting. Namely, where do D&D play? I see many putting Dempsey wide, and this certainly is a possibility, but I'd want him closer to goal. Which, given JK's inexplicably poor roster decisions (both wide and and outside back, Beasley/Lichaj) puts us in a pickle as to what to do with Fabian Johnson, if you play him at LM, then Castillo has to start at LB, or Boca. If you play him at LB, then who do your start as the second wide MF beside Donovan?

    For me, I'd go the second route with this 23. And since Danny Williams isn't on the 23, I'd stick Bradley at RM and move Donovan to LM.

    ---------------Howard-------------
    Dolo--Gooch-----Boca---Johnson
    ---------------Jones---------------
    Bradley------Torres------Donovan
    ---------------Dempsey------------
    --------------Altidore----------------

    I think those are our best XI players by a fair margin, or at least, the best XI on this 23 (no Chandler or Beasley). I certainly prefer this to Castillo or Boca at LB, and also to starting a second forward who I think isn't up to snuff. Against a more powerful team (Brazil), I may go more a true 4-5-1 with Jones/Bradley/Torres in the center, and Deuce and Donovan wide, and Jozy alone up top. LD or Deuce can always more inside to support Jozy and have Mikey or JFF move wide to give it more of a 4-4-2 look during the game.
     
  4. Susaeta

    Susaeta BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 3, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My guess is we already know the answers. Against Slovenia the US lined up in a skinny 4-4-2. This is how it actually looked on the field. See ESPN GameCast Average position as well.

    [​IMG]

    The US skinny 4-4-2 played a lot like a 3-4-3. With the current roster, it would look more like this.

    [​IMG]

    This is how I expect Klinsmann's team to play.
     
  5. gmonn

    gmonn Member+

    Dec 8, 2005
    Watching Brazil tear apart Denmark in the first half, I wonder if Torres even does start vs them. In a tournament against Brazil I think we might see three of Edu, Jones, Beckerman, Bradley, Williams all staying back. Johnson at LB, OO, CB, SC, and Donovan, Dempsey, and Altidore.
     
  6. Konut

    Konut Member+

    May 31, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    I think you under rate Jones as a box to box player in that role. His work rate is probably the best on the team with the exception of Donovan.... maybe Bradley is close too. He's also under rated in his passing ability. I mean he's a consistent starter at CM for one of the best teams in the Bundesliga.... obviously he has some passing talent.

    That said, it's hard for me to decide if I'd rather have Bradley or Jones at the #6 role and which one I'd want at the box to box role.

    If I were to have put Jones at the DM and Bradley in front of him in that same line up would you view it as an attacking line up?
     
    Dignan repped this.
  7. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    You know, against Scotland I rather like this. I'm also interested to see this same set up with Corona where Johnson is.
     
  8. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

    Nov 29, 1999
    Granada
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I rate both of them very highly in their ability to pass and create. That is why I generally feel Torres is superfluous. Bradley and Jones are just better, so why even play Torres? B and J offer so much more.

    I would rather we play them alone in the middle with two forwards and two wingers/AM's, while then throwing the full backs into the attack as well. This allows us 4 attacking players, plus Bradley and Jones who can play around the box, and then when we have possession throwing a full back into the mix. It gives us the ability to have 6-7 guys on the field who can get forward from various parts of the field in various situations. It also allows for a quite transition game and a strong counter... something we haven't seen much under JK.

    This is where Beckerman/Torres/Williams have struggled... being able to get forward and contribute and/or not killing off our own counters.
     
  9. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

    Nov 29, 1999
    Granada
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That is attacking soccer, and you can really see Bradley and Jones' caliber in getting forward and making decisive and attacking passes. Even Kljestan. You also see the real quickness with which we transition the play and really press the attack. It is very quick.

    I am excited about today, hopefully this series of games is the step in getting us playing attacking soccer again.
     
  10. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    The midfield is probably ok with Edu/Jones, Torres, and Bradley in there. Bradly could be shifted to the 6 position with Edu/Jones in the right mid spot. It's really more of a 4312 as Donovan and Dempsey are more trequartista than #10.

    Including Jones/Edu should improve the defensive aspect of that midfield.
     
  11. truefan420

    truefan420 Member+

    May 30, 2010
    oakland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm really interested to see what Torres can do against a physical team like the scots. Ideally Holden would play where Torres is but who knows if Holden will ever be healthy or regain his form. Can't wait for kick off.
     
  12. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

    May 21, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    The clear point of conflict is that the second central midfielder, the #8, whether it be Torres, Edu, Bradley, or Jones, has been less active in directly getting involved in the attack the way that same player would have under Bradley.

    This has played a HUGE part in both our defensive success and our offensive problems. Defensively, having both central midfielders right in front of our backline has been excellent for breaking up attacks, and covering for our front four. Compare that to Bob Bradley's reign in which we saw one central midfielder, generally Michael Bradley, charge forward, and our attack got even better when Bradley's ball handling got better.

    However, the issue under Bradley is that if somebody lost possession in the final third, we were left with one central midfielder guarding our backline, which became severely crippled after a while. With Klinsmann the issue is that with only four attackers, ( six if you count the fullbacks, five if you consider only one gets forward at a time) our attack has become quite toothless.

    Against Slovenia, we went back to not necessarily Bradley's STYLE, but rather Bradley's PROBLEM. We went with a narrow 4-4-2 diamond in which three of our four midfielders (Bradley, Johnson, and Dempsey) were a very active part of our attack, and that left one ( Beckerman) to guard our back four ( back two if you think about how active Cherundolo and Chandler were in the attack as well).

    So it's no shock that the U.S. suffered defensively and succeeded offensively that game.

    So where is the balance? Well...

    I don't really know. I'll have to think on that one.
     
    LouisZ repped this.
  13. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

    May 21, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    The Brazil side of the World Cup, while they did crash out against Holland, had a very interesting formation that we might like our selves.

    http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/06/09/brazil-tactics-world-cup-2010/

    I'm not talking about matching EVERY arrow here, but I like the idea and it suits our players in my mind. Donovan could easily fit into that Robinho role on the left, Dempsey where Kaka is, Altidore where Fabiano is, Johnson where Elano is Torres where Melo is, and Bradley in Silva's spot.

    Brazil, similarly, didn't send hoardes of players forward, necessarily. Melo and Silva stayed deep in front of their back line and allowed the rest of the team to move up. This Brazil side was very defensively sound and hardly looked that troubled defensively for most of the World Cup. It should also be noted that a similar set-up in 2002 for Brazil, where Luiz Filipe Scolari sent less numbers forward and gave their attackers in Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, and Ronaldo, a bit more freedom. http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/01/28/teams-of-the-decade-12-brazil-2002/

    Of course that's Brazil, who are clearly technically superior.
     
  14. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    It did but it took away from the transition because Torres can't push it up with the ball.

    Whether it was a 4-3-3 or 3-4-3, when Johnson pushed up on the left, this team needed a speed outlet much the same way the Raiders of old had a legitimate deep threat.

    Gomez did his best but he was up there by himself. Hypothetically, one could have pushed Donovan up into a 4-4-2 precisely for that reason. Torres then may have been able to step into a withdrawn role in 4-3-1-2. He wouldn't have been necessarily a #10 but still sitting in front of the Jones-Bradley-Edu trio in a pseudo-Diamond of sorts.

    -----------Gomez----------Donovan----------

    -------------BIG...............GAP-----------------

    ----------------------Torres---------------------

    ----------Jones------------------Bradley--------

    ----------------------Edu-------------------------

    Much like in the NFL, having a deep threat forces the defense to back-off a little or risk being burned by a home run ball. Brazil had nothing to be afraid of deep and so they pressed like mothers.

    In other words, Klinsmann and his staff were outcoached tonight at least on X's and O's.
     
  15. Skevin

    Skevin Member+

    Aug 9, 2009
    Colorado
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Czechia
    Brazil's really high pressure and Bradley's and Edu's position switch really affected Torres' game. I was watching Torres pretty closely and every time he got the ball, he really had very few options going forward. Bradley and Edu kept getting into eachother's spots. Don't know why Jurgen decided to switch them. I am looking forward to see Torres with Altidore, Donovan and Dempsey around him. He can definitely pick a pass.
     
  16. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They did not just pressure our backs, they pinned LD and Torres to the sidelines with no support every time they got the ball.
     
  17. ant0n

    ant0n Member+

    Jun 12, 2007
    San Jose, Ca
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Torres needs to be starting in the middle alongside Bradley and Jones. Edu offers nothing going forward and is such a liability that his crappy touches nullify whatever he might over on the defensive end. I'm happy with what I saw of Torres and Bradley. They show that with the adequate supporting runs they can conduct an attack pretty well. It is just a matter of getting them the support they need in order to get the ball moving quickly up the field.
     
  18. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    I think it should be Torres alongside one of Bradley or Jones, not both. This would allow us to get four bonafide attacking players back in the lineup. What I would like to see against Canada and in the qualifiers is this:

    2 Forwards: Gomez and Altidore, with Boyd coming off the bench.
    2 Attacking mids: Donovan and Dempsey
    Torres as the 8
    Bradley as the 6

    Jones as the main backup (alternative) to both Torres and Bradley.
     
  19. Skevin

    Skevin Member+

    Aug 9, 2009
    Colorado
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Czechia
    I like that a lot, but I don't see Jurgen going from 4 CMs to only two.
     
  20. Pragidealist

    Pragidealist Member+

    Mar 3, 2010
    I would prefer getting Bradley into the attack than Boyd up top.
     

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