Anyway, this is how a clueless person (like Pipiolo) commenting the games: At Euro2004: before the game France (ranking #2) faced off Greece: " oh Greece were just a "SECOND RATE" team (ranking #48)" After France LOST the game, they quickly said " oh they were NOT second rate" team as they went on and won the cup???? LOL
Agreed. I think the quality of his teammates was the reason why he made risky passes all the time. When he lost all his speed and could only focus on passing, he is second to none in this skill set.
Yes, but that seems trivial, because it doesn't undermine the point I made. It's simply natural that his passing would flourish in some systems with players who can play harmoniously with him, and that's what happened in the Poland game. It was either Romano or bianchi (I cannot remember which) that described napolis tactics as creating a concrete block around him (defensive solidity) and letting maradona provide the invention - (In relation to the 86/87 season) Surrounded with a concrete block..... thats a way to stifle his creativity rather than get the most from it. But that was the required pragmatism, they didn't have the players to play a better way, maradona + 1 skilful forward bertoni/Giordano wasn't enough (later yes careca added a new dimension but even then no skilful midfielders to help)
I've always rated Greece as second rate. So you think Mexico of WC62 is in the same level as Italy of WC82?
Mexico in 60's were a force in Football at time. Perhaps they were not the same level with Italy in 80's but not much difference in QUALITY of team. Mexico 60s vs Italy 80s would be like a Turkey 2002 vs France 2013 or England 2013 ... (France/England might sound like a 'better" team BY NAME, but I am not quite sure which team will WIN)
@SirWellingtonSilva I guess it is more appropriate to discuss the 'passing' here instead of the dribblers thread. I understand. I put 'standard repertoire' within quotation marks because it isn't the same as 'easy'. I mean with 'standard' something like a weighted through-pass with the instep. Not an overhead kick assist or whatever. In this case it is 'simple' in the sense of 'easy to perform, hard to master' - not in the sense of 'easy'. Assists from pure forwards are indeed quite simple, often. Simple in the sense of 'easy', with the difficult part of the play located in the past. But of midfielders (or forward/midfield hybrids) not so. Look at an assist video of Silva or Ozil for example. Vegan 10 has uploaded all Serie A assists from 1987 to 1991 [click on the channel to see the other ones] Has it a few very spectacular ones? Sure. And I believe that this 'simplicity' is true for 95% of the moves the started (incl. pre-assists, assists). In that 1986-87 Serie A season he scored 10 goals (3PK) and had 6 assists (with 2 rebounds included). It means a direct involvement of 39% (41 team goals). What I wonder then, how bad was the service by the other Napoli players? Maradona was obviously the best provider, by a mile, but how many chances were squandered where also a sub-optimal passer provided the goalscoring opportunity? With not only a 'bad' finisher on the receiving end but also a not so good passer at the start. For you, here all assists of 1985-86 that I found: Napoli – Atalanta 1:0 1 assist Napoli – Verona 5:0 1 assist Napoli – Torino 3:1 1 assist Napoli – Sampdoria 3:0 1 assist 1986-87 (quoted from Bada Bing) Napoli - Torino 3-1, Giordano (Rebound) Sampdoria - Napoli 1-2, Caffarelli (Rebound) Napoli - Ascoli 3-0, Romano Torino - Napoli 0-1, Giordano Napoli - Juventus 2-1, Renica Ascoli - Napoli 1-1, Carnevale I know that there is only a loose correlation with set-pieces, but if the others were such a bad passer/provider why was Maradona until 1987 not the main set-piece taker? He only took a minority of the corner-kicks and (indirect) free kicks. That's an important reason why he has more assists after 1987, btw. I agree that they had a block around him. That's also what the manager Bianchi said. He said that the star shouldn't play in a "tactical position" but have all freedom, with the others making sure that he can express this. A solid base. But the other players were not devoid of skills. Case in point: the 1987 away game against Juventus, which ended Juventus their long running unbeaten home streak. Juventus came 1:0 ahead but Napoli turned it to 1:3. The likes of Renica, Giordano, Bagni and also De Napoli make dummies in the game that tricks the Juventus set-up. Between the 1:0 and 1:1 the support-cast shows what they can do - in terms of movements, triangles and such - when Napoli has to 'make' the game. One example: 14:50 - ball to Maradona. In this game Maradona was even better, noticeably better (say also Italian match ratings): Example of good ball to him: 4:54 Keep in mind that he had only in the last three seasons at Napoli (1988-89, 1989-90, 1990-91) more assists as field goals. Especially in the first two seasons he had way more goals as assists (4 and 5 to be precise). But bottom line of what I initially said: it is dangerous to take an exhibition game as a good example. I think he was the best passer, dribbler and also best finisher of his team but the team-mates he had to work with were OK. It was not as bad as some make it out to be.
Pele is on top of everyone in every list ... no need to defend him Argentina fans will have to work HARD to justify Maradona place of #2 over Di stefano or Cruijff ... at BEST.
Another example of that same match where Juventus their unbeaten home streak ended (and virtually meant a change of the guard). At 24:44 (no typo) onward one can see De Napoli and Bagni showing a bit of skill. There are some more in the game. And yes, also by Maradona obviously.
NOT really I am sure 99% of this forum were NOT part of that votes, (including you) SO? say: Maradona won ONCE (over Pele out of 20+ times <5%) thanks to the YOUNGER FANS (clueless) voting and had nothing to do but were QUICK with internet
That 'R9godmagic' channel is very good but in case you and others haven't figured it out yet, it shows generally not all touches of a player. That is not 'bad' of course but perhaps it makes sense to keep it in the back of the mind. For example, compilation above doesn't show the moment on 22:20, 25:40 (latter one in particular). Probably there are some more moments because I was just skipping through. From same channel this also an interesting one - a game against Denmark in the precursor of the current Confederations Cup (CA winner vs euro winner). Argentina won after penalty kicks (Brian Laudrup played but his older brother did not make himself available). He was 32 years old at that time.
Thanks - I knew that there was a Cruyff vs Argentina 1974 video without his assist to Rep with the cross from the left. I didn't know about what you pointed out or that it was regular for bits to be missing (re: Stojkovic I did wonder though as his highlights vid from 1997 against Spain was less than 3 mins IIRC).
Not called here in this thread, and not sayin' he should be in top 10, but Arnold Mühren was also a gifted passer. Rightly valued here as one of his better attributes. http://pesstatsdatabase.com/viewtopic.php?t=9057&f=185 'WS' had also an article about him when he retired, and announced that on the cover (which they didn't do with most players obviously, and not at each month too). Noticed it when watching a game when he and Dalglish stood both on the field (Dalglish also being a neat and clean striker of the ball, efficient).
Terry Butcher said it too: http://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/terry-butcher-one-one Another one: [one of the best phases of his career but not the best game, his Torino spell was individually succesful though and of a generally constant level]
Third career hat-trick of assists for Messi, could have had six, and that was against a team that completely shut down Fabregas - Busquets - Xavi midfield few days ago:
Can you provide other examples as well as overhead kicks? I'm not sure where to draw the line between easy to perform/difficult to master passes and the other types of pass your talking about. In terms of overheads your right that not many of assists were from that, I think one in napoli vs bari 89 90, and one in Barcelona vs espanyol if you could call it a type of overhead hooked pass, and those are the only ones that I can think of. Having said that I can think of quite a lot of equally good/ better ones that didn't have the fortune to be put in the net. The ones where I remember the opponent were; Boca vs river 81 Barcelona vs real madrid league cup final Napoli vs lazio 84 85 Torino vs napoli 86 87 Napoli vs verona 89 90 Those overhead kicks created good chances. I have some others in mind but can't remember the opponents. There are other as well that he did in the build up play. My impression from that season was the overwhelming majority of napolis goals were from these categories: - scored by maradona - result of a set piece - from a cross into the box - shooting from long distance and rebounds - defensive errors There were not many well worked ones not involving maradona imo, though there are rare examples. It was mostly a physically dominating approach I think, that would not have been near enough to win serie a without maradona pulling the strings imo. I think it's a good idea to recognize assists in coppa italia as well. I understand that maybe there are doubts about the level of competition, but on the other hand many players enjoy playing 8 extra league games against low quality opponents, whereas at the time serie a was a 16 team league. I think you were correct when you said it was a loose correlation. But anyway, I think he was the first choice corner taker on the right side. On the left side they preferred a right footed player. They might have considered him a good threat in the box, it might seem unlikely given his size, but he scored a good few goals like that at boca and Barcelona. Did they create one chance prior to going 2-1 up that was a result of good passing? (Without maradona) There was a lot of back to front play, particularly with renica swinging his leg to kick the ball 50+ yards. They didn't have a philosophy of passing nice on the eye so some nice touches here and there doesn't prove much imo. Majority of there good moves were maradona dependent. I wonder what their level would look like without him? And without him attracting defenders towards him. "Ok" sounds like a polite way of saying mediocre...
Is Messi currently reinventing himself, again? 08-09 he became the worlds best player as a winger, 09-11 he moved more to the center, as a center forward and remained as the worlds best player, 11-13 he changed yet again and still remained worlds best player as a false 9. Now the teams insist of clogging the center every time, and trying to deny space just from Messi so he's countering that by moving again, to further from the clog, and playing more like a attacking midfielder. Will be interesting to see if he can again remain as the best player.
For the interested people, one of the rare games featuring Didi in the pre-Garrincha era. Also pre-Pelé obviously.
Just finished a second part of Carlos Valderrama, this one is 40 minutes long and quite possibly the most complete video out there of Valderrama between 1990 and 1991. The video also includes a few segments of the 1989 Copa America. There's a few good examples of his passing abilities.