Continuing the series, I finished the second of ten rankings refers to the best players of all-time by role on my criteria. As previously, the main criterion is the same: This is the summary list of centre-backs, the complete article in Spanish is here: http://glavisted.blogspot.com/2010/11/top-50-de-defensas-centrales.html Top 50 01. BECKENBAUER, Franz (Germany) 02. BARESI, Franco (Italy) 03. MOORE, Bobby (England) 04. PASSARELLA, Daniel (Argentina) 05. FIGUEROA, Elías (Chile) 06. SCIREA, Gaetano (Italy) 07. KROL, Ruud (Netherlands) 08. BERGOMI, Giuseppe (Italy) 09. NASAZZI, José (Uruguay) 10. SANTAMARÍA, José Emilio (Uruguay) 11. DESAILLY, Marcel (France) 12. NESTA, Alessandro (Italy) 13. SAMMER, Matthias (Germany) 14. KOEMAN, Ronald (Netherlands) 15. CHUMPITAZ, Héctor (Peru) 16. KOHLER, Jürgen (Germany) 17. DA GUIA, Domingos (Brazil) 18. HANSEN, Alan (Scotland) 19. WRIGHT, Billy (England) 20. DE VECCHI, Renzo (Italy) 21. CROMPTON, Bob (England) 22. GENTILE, Claudio (Italy) 23. FÖRSTER, Karlheinz (Germany) 24. CANNAVARO, Fabio (Italy) 25. QUINCOCES, Jacinto (Spain) 26. VASOVIC, Velibor (Yugoslavia) 27. BLANC, Laurent (France) 28. HIERRO, Fernando (Spain) 29. PERFUMO, Roberto (Argentina) 30. TRÉSOR, Marius (France) 31. FRANKLIN, Neil (England) 32. JONQUET, Robert (France) 33. LUÍS PEREIRA (Brazil) 34. ROSETTA, Virginio (Italy) 35. SHESTERNYOV, Albert (Soviet Union) 36. RUGGERI, Óscar (Argentina) 37. DÖRNER, Hans-Jürgen (East Germany) 38. LÚCIO (Lucimar Ferreira da Silva) (Brazil) 39. KHURTSILAVA, Murtaz (Soviet Union) 40. FERRARA, Ciro (Italy) 41. PUYOL, Carles (Spain) 42. TERRY, John (England) 43. AYALA, Roberto (Argentina) 44. PICCHI, Armando (Italy) 45. POPLUHÁR, Ján (Czechoslovakia) 46. GERMANO (Germano de Figueiredo) (Portugal) 47. LÓRÁNT, Gyula (Hungary) 48. RAVA, Pietro (Italy) 49. STAM, Jaap (Netherlands) 50. ZMUDA, Wladyslaw (Poland) Substitution List - ADAMS, Tony (England) - ALDAIR (Aldair Nascimento dos Santos) (Brazil) - ANCHETA, Atilio (Uruguay) - APOLZAN, Alexandru (Romania) - BASHASHKIN, Anatoli (Soviet Union) - BATTISTON, Patrick (France) - BELLINI, Hilderaldo (Brazil) - BELODEDICI, Miodrag (Romania) - BOSSIS, Maxime (France) - BUCHWALD, Guido (Germany) - CALIGARIS, Umberto (Italy) - CAMPBELL, Sol (England) - CARVALHO, Ricardo (Portugal) - COELHO, Humberto (Portugal) - COSTACURTA, Alessandro (Italy) - DE BOER, Frank (Netherlands) - ERHARDT, Herbert (Germany) - FERDINAND, Rio (England) - FERRI, Riccardo (Italy) - FONI, Alfredo (Italy) - GAMARRA, Carlos (Paraguay) - GORGON, Jerzy (Poland) - HAPPEL, Ernst (Austria) - ISRAËL, Rinus (Netherlands) - IVKOVIC, Milutin (Yugoslavia) - KATALINSKI, Josip (Yugoslavia) - KUZNETSOV, Oleg (Soviet Union) - LANTOS, Mihály (Hungary) - LUGANO, Diego (Uruguay) - MACEDA, Antonio (Spain) - MATOSAS, Roberto (Uruguay) - McGRATH, Paul (Ireland) - McNEILL, Billy (Scotland) - MEEUWS, Walter (Belgium) - MEIKLEJOHN, Davie (Scotland) - MELÉNDEZ, Julio (Peru) - MINELLI, Severino (Switzerland) - MONZEGLIO, Eraldo (Italy) - ONDRUS, Anton (Czechoslovakia) - PEREYRA, Darío (Uruguay) - PEZZEY, Bruno (Austria) - POPESCU, Gheorghe (Romania) - POSIPAL, Josef (Germany) - RIGAMONTI, Mario (Italy) - ROSATO, Roberto (Italy) - SCHULZ, Willi (Germany) - SCHWARZENBECK, Hans-Georg (Germany) - SESTA, Karl (Austria) - VAN DER HART, Cor (Netherlands) - VIERCHOWOD, Pietro (Italy)
Which sources did you use? I think the problem with these lists is that not all centre-backs are the same. Beckenbauer was more of a midfielder and defensively not the best around. Of the top 10, Passarella and Scirea comes the closest to a pure centre-back with excellent defensive skills, both positionally and one-on-one (Baresi was good too, certainly in reading situations but one-on-one he wasn't world class imo). Bergomi is the only stopper in the top 10 isn't it? Ruud Krol was a good left back in the beginning of his career (imo one of the best I have ever seen; very good ball skills and an excellent passer, better than most left-backs) and a sweeper/libero later on but also not a pure defender.
I also read in your piece Quincecos was included in the 1934WC team of the tournament. Do you have a source about that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup_awards Scroll down to Allstar Team Probably Peru should have clarified that his list includes: - Fullbacks 2-X-X System like Nasazzi - Stoppers - Sweepers
They're just made up though aren't they? There is no source for any of them. For instance the 1974 team is drawn up in a 5-3-3 formation.
You're right, I never noticed this. Damn wikipedia. So what's up with that? Did journalists vote for allstars before 1998?
Sorry, for the reply, can't edit anymore but Krol was of course also the one who gave that ball to Rensenbrink in the 1978WC final. Overall a fairly good top 10 although I have some doubts about Moore (sometimes it seems more of a myth; yes, Pelé may have said he was the best defender he played against but later on he nuanced that to 'one of the finest', Pelé was also a good friend of Moore of course). Was he really that much better than any other English defender in history (both peak-wise and longevity-wise)? I don't know, it is just a feeling of me. Same with Bergomi. To call him the best 'pure' defender in Italian history is also a big call. Perhaps true, perhaps not. He was of course an important pillar in the record-breaking scudetto team of Internazionale, that speaks for him, while some other things not (for example his lack of World Cup/euro glory; his role in 1982 was considerable in the later stages, when he replaced an injured Collovati, but not of prime-performance). Bergomi was selected in the euro88 team of the tournament (and played indeed well but I also see that Van Breukelen is chosen above Dasaev???) but not for 1990WC (don't know why actually, he was great imo).
I think journalists often came up with their own teams but I'm far from convinced it was anything official or compiled into a real team of the tournament. Certainly in the early ones. I've got an extremely in depth German magazine and book for 1934 and they have no such teams in them. I think by the 50s there may have been more organised things around. Also noted in 1990 wikipedia has the team playing 3-4-4.
When all 16th/QF/SF games were played on the same day & time allstar teams and awards wouldn't be very accurate anyway.
You're spot on. Before WC70 they tried to pick the best XI, But From 74 onward, they are more like a random selections based on (?) what they think who were best there from 12-20+ players. The worst selection was WC2006 with ALL BIG NAMES squeezed in to make up 23 players - despite of a so-so quality tournaments. If it's true that names were "good" in WC06, I could have selected 50+ players good in WC70! Gosh
Actually, I don't remember all the sources I used because basically I've collected many data and watching a lot of matches during the last decade (I remember I started after the 1998 World Cup when I was 10), so it's not exactly a recent study. Actually, Passarella was more a sweeper than a pure defensive centre-back, Scirea was also a sweeper but truly a very defensive minded. Krol was also a sweeper who could play by the left side and I'd say Baresi was by sure a great defender on the one on one. I'd count also to Nasazzi as a type of stopper alongside Bergomi in the Top 10. I'm agree with you even between them there are very different styles of play for centre-backs, stoppers, old half-backs and sweepers, but even between just only one of these types there would be also different styles (there is Scirea, Beckenbauer, Sammer and Figueroa despite all of them were sweepers). I don't think there is any problem there, I'd rate them basing not only in specific skills for the position but their overall dimension as footballers ordering him in the most suitable cathegories.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup_awards http://football.sporting99.com/fifa-world-cup-all-star-team.html Also I've the information in a book I've about the history of the World Cups.
As previously I wrote, yes, I should. These are all in this cathegory as in my next cathegory of side-backs are going to be also wing-backs and some of free-role defenders by side in a 3-man defensive line as Tarcisio Burgnich, Paul Janes and Eddie Hapgood.
I know, but he was good one on one, good in marking and good in the air. Therefore I said "Passarella and Scirea comes the closest to a pure centre-back with excellent defensive skills". Do you have proof of it? I really can't remember and when I watch the youtube compilations I do not see a single one-on-one situation (either with the attackers nose towards the goal or with the back of the attacker towards the goal). When operating in a flat back four he was still the free man in defence and had the job to control the offside trap, for example. You're right. How do you see the differences between Beckenbauer, Sammer and Figueroa in terms of playing style? (obviously, Beckenbauer was the most gifted dribbler of the three)
Ah!, ok, you mean closest by pure defensive skills, I thought you wrote they were pure centre-backs, my mistake mate. Apart of Baresi, I'd add by pure defensive skills close from the Top 10 to Figueroa, perhaps Santamaría. Just only what I watched about him but I think was one of his most notorious qualities so I think maybe we aren't agree about the concept in English of a one-on-one situation for a defender? For me is referring about the ability to robber the ball from the feet of an opposite player in a single battle between the ability of the offensive player and the opportunism of the defender in the coverage. Just only finding for a random video in YouTube I could watch some of these situations from this since the 1:20 minute: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUrTtivG-ks"]Franco Baresi - YouTube[/ame]
Well, I think Beckenbauer's style of play was more oriented in a type of sweeper playing ahead of the defensive line acting as a defensive player of projection exploiting his elegant ability driving the ball and it's the reason because he played many times as a defensive midfielder. Sammer was more a type of sweeper who when played as defender in his best years his position was behind the defensive line acting as a literal sweeper of balls when the stoppers (as Kohler) were outweighed. Even playing as a defensive midfielder his role was more a balls retriever than a driving force as Beckenbauer. Figueroa was a more balanced sweeper in terms of defensive and offensive abilities. He was a fine player with the ball in the feet and capable to driving it as well as being a strong stopper to the mark as was in Uruguay and Brazil against very gifted players.
Yes, that video shows how I remember him: as a cleaner of loose balls. You often see him at the sidelines; a classic job of a good sweeper. One-on-one is for me: A duel in the air for the ball A duel where the attacker is with his back towards the goal when receiving the ball. Like here: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeWgY7pPkwY"]WM 1990 Vorrunde: Deutschland - Jugoslawien 4:1 (German TV) - YouTube[/ame] (very bad marking actually but I think you get the point; that is a one-on-one situation where a defender can't afford to let an attacker turn) When the attacker is sprinting towards the goal and there is no cover-up for the defender (this is the irony; Baresi was top class in providing such a cover!). In these cases there is no emergency plan any more and it is either the attacker who goes on towards goal or the defender taking the ball. Like here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0S44N8nKpFU#t=314s (that is one-on-one, with no cover-up; unfortunately, Cruyff evaded the duel) So, then I'm tempted to say that Pasarella and Scirea were really good in these departments despite being a sweeper/libero. Both were good headers, for example (so they are also suited to play 3 versus 3 at the back, without a free man at the back, if necessary when the game develops in favour of the opponent). I hope you understand what I mean.